knowledge of salvation

[Desert Walker]

My big question about this is how do you talk to people about avoiding damnation if the only thing they think keeps them out of hell is not giving to the poor, not getting angry, and loving everybody.

How do you talk to people about hell when the greatest vice in this culture is lust?

How do you tell them that lust can send them to hell?

Because it's not just enough for people to know that if they choose not to lust they're virtuous and thus, on the path to eternal life, they must also know that lust will result in eternal damnation.

[morostheos]

[quote name='Desert Walker' date='Mar 7 2006, 04:19 PM']My big question about this is how do you talk to people about avoiding damnation if the only thing they think keeps them out of hell is not giving to the poor, not getting angry, and loving everybody.

How do you talk to people about hell when the greatest vice in this culture is lust?

How do you tell them that lust can send them to hell? 

Because it's not just enough for people to know that if they choose not to lust they're virtuous and thus, on the path to eternal life, they must also know that lust will result in eternal damnation.


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I would say the only remedy to that is rather to help people to come to know the person of Jesus Christ. Rather than showing them what will send them to hell, it is more important to focus on union with Christ. Once someone knows how much Christ loves them and how much He wants them to be happy, then you can show them the plan laid out by Christ in Christian morality. I think people inherently respond more to a motivation of not wanting to let someone (Christ) down in a loving relationship that the scariness of eternal damnation. Of course, the reality of the possiblity of eternal damnation should not be completely dismissed. I think a good way to start a discussion about that is to start with the fact that God is a just God and because He loves us will give us what we are due unless we ask for His forgiveness and repent.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I like that advice. As a not for sure Catholic or mainline Christian even. They say a new consciousness is arising. One where people are motivated out of love, rather than fear. If the CC is true, I'd think the former would be the way to go within it. Of course a health dose of the right kind of God fear is good, etc etc.

[Myles Domini]

Just checking to see if JS had replied to [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=48642&view=findpost&p=902152"]post 23 as yet[/url].

PS) Nice post Bro Adam

[jesussaves]

Myles. I will not give a point by point rebuttal unless you take the time to reduce the article to its main points. I realize somethings cannot be reduced but that can. I did however read it and will reply to the main point.

Those quotes in that passage you linked talk about rules we must follow. Those are rule which we break. Breaking the rules doesn't mean we will burn in hell for breaking them. Luther it should be noted also said... "A man is justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone". If someone is Christian, they do good works. If they are in sin, they change. If they don't change, they probably will, but God won't judge them for where they happen to be when they die. If they never change, which I'm not sure can happen, but I honestly don't know, God will simply detract from them the glories they could have achieved.

Edited March 8, 2006 by jesussaves

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Mar 7 2006, 11:35 PM']I like that advice. As a not for sure Catholic or mainline Christian even. They say a new consciousness is arising. One where people are motivated out of love, rather than fear. If the CC is true, I'd think the former would be the way to go within it. Of course a health dose of the right kind of God fear is good, etc etc.
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Actually, motivation to serve God out of love rather than fear is an important and ancient part of Catholic spirituality. For example, compare [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04337a.htm"]contrition (link)[/url] vs [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02065a.htm"]attrition(link)[/url]. Where I live, people aren't living in fear of God; but in ignorance of God; I suppose that ignorance might breed a type of fear.

Along with a litany of saints, I pray that more people will embrace a living relationship with God out of love.

[Desert Walker]

Scripture does say that "Fear of the Lord is the [i]beginning[/i] of wisdom."

In a way I think you can't progress humbly in a relationship with God if you don't have a certain fear of His justice. Without that healthy fear, isn't it far easier to descend in to a kind of spiritual pride?

[morostheos]

[quote name='Desert Walker' date='Mar 8 2006, 11:11 AM']Scripture does say that "Fear of the Lord is the [i]beginning[/i] of wisdom."

In a way I think you can't progress humbly in a relationship with God if you don't have a certain fear of His justice.  Without that healthy fear, isn't it far easier to descend in to a kind of spiritual pride?
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I would agree with that, but before you can fear the Lord you have to know who He is.

[kateri05]

ahh, wonder and awe. i miss knowing people with that gift, don't you Claire?

[morostheos]

[quote name='kateri05' date='Mar 8 2006, 01:58 PM']ahh, wonder and awe.  i miss knowing people with that gift, don't you Claire?
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I certainly do!

[missionseeker]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 8 2006, 12:35 AM']Myles. I will not give a point by point rebuttal unless you take the time to reduce the article to its main points. I realize somethings cannot be reduced but that can. I did however read it and will reply to the main point.

Those quotes in that passage you linked talk about rules we must follow. Those are rule which we break. Breaking the rules doesn't mean we will burn in hell for breaking them. Luther it should be noted also said... "A man is justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone". If someone is Christian, they do good works. If they are in sin, they change. If they don't change, they probably will, but God won't judge them for where they happen to be when they die. If they never change, which I'm not sure can happen, but I honestly don't know, God will simply detract from them the glories they could have achieved.
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For my own sake, do you beleive in Hell? Or something like it? What do you believe here?

(Not trying/wanting to be rude -but I'm scared it is coming off that way- I'm just trying to figure out where we all are)

And you never answered post 22 either.

[missionseeker]

i'm bumping so it can be easily found next time jesussaves is on.

[jesussaves]

In response to post 22, I will post questions that if you can answer, I might begin to think of converting.


You have your belief in the Eucharist. You note your worthy argument of biblical uncertainty, intellectually speaking, and so often Catholics point to their history. So if I accept that Ignatius believed in the Catholic understanding, which I'm not sure I do, what about all the other major Christian centers in the 100s? Beyond the 100s, the same could be said for the 200s lack of sufficient literature and on. Most Catholics at this point simply brush me off and say that I have no proof. But I do know the Didache and other literature talked about the Eucharist in terms that could be for many beliefs. They don't contradict Catholics beliefs, but they don't reinforce them. A Catholic might also insist that I am simply arguing from silence. That is true, but considering the situation, silence is enough: taking a leap of faith on that amount of evidence isn't a guarantee when you have other interpretations and reasons. Plus, there have to be reasons why the literature doesn't exist or articles, which I can't find. I hear things about raids and burnings, but this could easily be a cop out, even if it has some basis in reality. It doesn't in all geography. What about comparing non-Christian literature from cities with Christian. True, maybe the Christian were burned out of passions of religion, but give me something to work with. The Catholic Church has been in power so long, it shouldn't be surprising it has preserved what it has. It seems convenient it's lost what it has. Just because the belief was there, doesn't mean it was widespread.

I'll get to other issues later.

Edited March 17, 2006 by jesussaves

[Brother Adam]

[quote]You have your belief in the Eucharist. You note your worthy argument of biblical uncertainty, intellectually speaking, and so often Catholics point to their history. So if I accept that Ignatius believed in the Catholic understanding, which I'm not sure I do, what about all the other major Christian centers in the 100s? Beyond the 100s, the same could be said for the 200s lack of sufficient literature and on. Most Catholics at this point simply brush me off and say that I have no proof. But I do know the Didache and other literature talked about the Eucharist in terms that could be for many beliefs. They don't contradict Catholics beliefs, but they don't reinforce them. A Catholic might also insist that I am simply arguing from silence. That is true, but considering the situation, silence is enough: taking a leap of faith on that amount of evidence isn't a guarantee when you have other interpretations and reasons.[/quote]

I'm probably not the best person to answer your question of everyone here, but it seems you are arguing more from frustration, as in "Why can't I find other documents from the early Christians that support my view?" As if the Catholic Church would have 'gotten rid of them'. The sheer amount of data that we do have though should be enough for examination, and the 38 volume set of the writings of the Church Fathers is free to download and commentaries have been written on it by both Catholics and Protestants.

[quote]The Catholic Church has been in power so long, it shouldn't be surprising it has preserved what it has. It seems convenient it's lost what it has. Just because the belief was there, doesn't mean it was widespread.[/quote]

To me, that is the fascinating thing about the history of the Catholic Church. It doesn't trace its roots to the 15th century, or the 4th, 3rd, or 2nd, but we see the successive documentation all the way back to Christ. Either the Church is part of a vast conspiracy against 'real' Christians, i.e. Protestants, who founded themselves 1600 years after Christ, or despite being a Church filled with wheat and weeds, it has survived through the guarentee of the Holy Spirit, as recorded in the scriptures - being that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. To me, Protestantism states that indeed the gates of hell did prevail against the church and a separation was necessary.

[missionseeker]

Here are some early Church documents/teachings about the true presence

[quote][b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b]
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [[b]A.D. 110[/b]]).


"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [[b]A.D. 110[/b]]).  [/quote]

Ignatius not only belived the Catholic teaching, but taught it.
[quote][b]Justin Martyr[/b]
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [[b]A.D. 151[/b]]). [/quote]
[quote]"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2). [/quote]


[quote][b]Clement of Alexandria[/b]
"’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [[b]A.D. 191[/b]]). [/quote]

[quote][b]Tertullian[/b]
"[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [[b]A.D. 210[/b]]). [/quote]

[quote][b]Hippolytus[/b]
"‘And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table’ [Prov. 9:2] . . . refers to his [Christ’s] honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper [i.e.,
the Last Supper]" (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [[b]A.D. 217[/b]]). [/quote]

[b]Origen[/b]
"Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:56]" (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [[b]A.D. 248[/b]]).

[b]Cyprian of Carthage[/b]
"He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, ‘Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The Lapsed 15–16 [[b]A.D. 251[/b]]).