knowledge of salvation

[homeschoolmom]

[stbernardLT]

So someone post a topic about evangelization which should inspire everyone to go out and evangelize, but instead everyone continues to sit at their computer and argue about the meaning of words and phrases. I wonder what Jesus would think of this. Do we really no the meaning of spreading the gospel?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='stbernardLT' date='Mar 3 2006, 08:57 AM']So someone post a topic about evangelization which should inspire everyone to go out and evangelize, but instead everyone continues to sit at their computer and argue about the meaning of words and phrases.  I wonder what Jesus would think of this.  Do we really no the meaning of spreading the gospel?
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As JS said we are discussing what the Gospel means, specifically faith and works. JS has been here before and we have had discussions like this. It is important to understand the meaning of the words and phrases, otherwise we could be spreading falsehood.

As a side note, dialoguing with a non-Catholic is a way of spreading the Gospel stbernard. Your critcisms are unmerited.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 3 2006, 08:29 AM']While his metaphor is a valid one, I found that the context of the discussion was limiting the interpretation of the passage to a literal one and therefore would have excluded his understanding which left no room at all for the literal. Had the metaphor or the context been broader I would not have felt a need to call it into question, but you are correct. His metaphor is valid when it is understood to be coupled with the literal understanding.
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Yes, I agree his context excluded the literal. That is the downfall of the protestant belief. It does not capture the fullness of the meaning of the Lord's supper. They are correct in seeing it as symbolic but miss seeing the symbol become a reality. Yes the Eucharist is spiritual but they deny the physical. But in responding we must be sure we do not exclude the metaphore is my point. It is not what they believe that gets them in to trouble in this area but what they deny. I find that if you acknoweledge the symbolic/spiritual askpects early on in the discussion it many times takes away that part of the issue and more properly focuses the discussion on the broader reality of the Eucharist. Or any item of Catholic doctrine for that matter. We must for instance acknowledge the invisible as well as visible elements of the Church. They are not wrong in their believe in the invisible/spiritual Church but in their lack of recognition of the visible physical Church.

Edited March 3, 2006 by thessalonian

[Quietfire]

He said it five times, they knew what He said wasnt metaphorical.
It was literal.
It was too much for them to take. How can we eat his flesh and drink his blood.
He made His point by repeating himself again, and again, and again.
It wasnt a misunderstanding.
If it was, He would have explained differently so they would understand.
But He repeated Himself again.

Thats why all but the twelve left.

His point was made.

He speaks the words of eternal life.

[jesussaves]

Hi Pap. Yes we did discuss faith and works. We left off with me realizing that you do not "gain" salvation. But you do have that notion that you can't willingly sin. This is where we disagree. We both agree the person with faith must be repentant, but you think the person must stop sinning forever. I believe the person can sin and it won't be held against him even while he is in his sin because of his faith. He better have reservations about what he's doing though. Eventually he'll probably snap out of it, I'd think. Really, I'm not sure that matters. Jesus did say that you reap what you sow; that goes for the elect as well. You think a person can happen to be sinning with reservations and then go to hell despite belief.


Also, it seems all the evidence you are presenting about the flesh and the blood passage seems to be your own interpretations. That is, your interpretations that the Catholic Church is correct.
The fact there are so many beliefs doesn't mean they're wrong. There is one truth. The ones that follow correctly are good. There's probably a lot, but who knows. The ones that follow non-correctly are not good. I believe the correct method, along with I'm pretty sure most of those sects, is believing that Jesus died in attonement for your sins. All the works one does doesn't matter per se except that you do what you think is right.

Edited March 4, 2006 by jesussaves

[Paphnutius]

[quote]But you do have that notion that you can't willingly sin. This is where we disagree. We both agree the person with faith must be repentant, but you think the person must stop sinning forever. [/quote]Perhaps you could refresh my memory and cite where I stated something along these lines. We do not believe that the person must stop sinning in this life to enter heaven. (In heaven there will be no sin so yes the person in essence "stops sinning forver," but I do not think that is what you meant). We believe that the person must make an earnest effort and implore the grace of God to make positive steps towards not sinning. The person must renounce sin and all its effects, he must attempt to draw closer to our Lord and Savior. By drawing closer to Christ the person is leaving sin behind him. The person must seek to be holy in deeds.

[quote]You think a person can happen to be sinning with reservations and then go to hell despite belief. [/quote]If a person has reservations, then there is still some part of the person that desires to sin. Sin is a choice, and an act. If it is done with reservation it is still a sin. God does not look for reservation, but for repentance and conversion.

[Paphnutius]

I think I might know where this is coming from now. Is it coming from sin making us "loose salvation?" If that is the case then let me expound upon that.

We believe that a person must die in a state of grace to go to heaven. If a person does not die in a state of grace, then that person is not "saved." Mortal sin expells all grace from the soul and thus one is not in the state of grace upon death and thus condemned. Does this mean that a person must stop sinning?

What it means is that the Christian must strive, seak, and yearn to be holy as our Lord God is holy. He must renounce sin and repent to our Lord Christ for his transgressions. What happens when a person sins venially? That person has damaged his relationship with our Lord, but has not expelled all grace from his soul. Mortal sin expells grace because of its very nature. In either case, the person is to repent and come back to the Lord. With mortal sin this would imply a change of heart.

Note: venial sin is not mortal sin with reservations. They differ in their nature and effects.

I hope that was a suffecient recap.

Edited March 4, 2006 by Paphnutius

[missionseeker]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 3 2006, 11:02 PM']Also, it seems all the evidence you are presenting about the flesh and the blood passage seems to be your own interpretations. That is, your interpretations that the Catholic Church is correct.
The fact there are so many beliefs doesn't mean they're wrong. There is one truth. The ones that follow correctly are good. There's probably a lot, but who knows. The ones that follow non-correctly are not good. I believe the correct method, along with I'm pretty sure most of those sects, is believing that Jesus died in attonement for your sins. All the works one does doesn't matter per se except that you do what you think is right.
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If there is one Truth and many different religions (I'm talking Christian religions, not other religions, theistic or not) and all the religions teach different things, how can they all be correct? You yourself have said the Catholic Church is incorrect. Is just the Catholic Church incorrect and all other denominations correct?

BUT if "correct" means beleiving Jesus Christ dies in attonement for our sins, then the Catholic Church isn't incorrect. And something cannot be True and unTrue at the same time.

And how can works not matter? Jesus said they do.

[quote]1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.[/quote]

Matthew 7
[quote]13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[b]21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [/b]
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.[/quote]


Matthew 18

[quote] 5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

[b]6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire[/b].

[b]9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. [/b] 10Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. [/quote]

[Paphnutius]

[quote]If there is one Truth and many different religions (I'm talking Christian religions, not other religions, theistic or not) and all the religions teach different things, how can they all be correct?[/quote]I have always wondered how Univeraslists and non-Denominationlists get around the law of non-contradiction. Someday I would like to sit down with some of each and discuss this.

[MagiDragon]

I concede to the sheer volume of Bro Adam's post! lol I'm sure it's worth reading . . . but . . . *grins wryly* . . . i just find the size of it intimidating!

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Mar 4 2006, 09:42 AM']I concede to the sheer volume of Bro Adam's post!  lol  I'm sure it's worth reading . . . but . . . *grins wryly* . . . i just find the size of it intimidating!
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It is worth reading. I explore the question "How are we saved", actually it is only part of a longer, 50 page document that I hope to have published one day. I attempts to answer fears of Protestants (and Catholics) who do not understand that Catholics absolutely deny "Faith + Works = salvation". In fact, to believe so is an anathama. We are not Pelagians. But there is also a fine line to draw, because we do not believe "Faith Alone = salvation". We believe "Faith = salvation" (if we must use a formula). There is a distinct, and very real difference between faith and faith alone.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 4 2006, 10:06 AM']It is worth reading. I explore the question "How are we saved", actually it is only part of a longer, 50 page document that I hope to have published one day. I attempts to answer fears of Protestants (and Catholics) who do not understand that Catholics absolutely deny "Faith + Works = salvation". In fact, to believe so is an anathama. We are not Pelagians. But there is also a fine line to draw, because we do not believe "Faith Alone = salvation". We believe "Faith = salvation" (if we must use a formula). There is a distinct, and very real difference between faith and faith alone.
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Hmmm . . . sounds up my alley. The formulae draw a *very* fine line there, i shall have to read your work at some point: it sounds interesting. Still, seeing that there *are* a limited number of hours in this day, i shall procrastinate and read your post at some later point in time.

[MagiDragon]

ummm . . . bro adam . . . ummm . . . how'd you get that quote from the future? your signature has a quote from october 17 2006 . . . *confuzzled*

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Mar 4 2006, 11:31 AM']ummm . . . bro adam . . . ummm . . . how'd you get that quote from the future?  your signature has a quote from october 17 2006 . . . *confuzzled*
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See my 'I learned a very profound truth" thread in the open mic.