knowledge of salvation

[Myles Domini]

I remind JS that the formula 'Amen, Amen' translated as 'Very truly' was used by the Hebrews in the swearing of a solemn oath. Indeed, the gospel is simple. Its simply what Jesus is saying. Unless, of course, Jesus who is Truth tells lies and thus in spite promising that Hell would never triumph (Mt 16), that the Holy Spirit would teach us (Jn 14) and that He would be with us always (Mt 28) he allowed the Church to err for 1500 years until Luther showed up to correct us all...

Edited March 3, 2006 by Myles

[jesussaves]

There are certain things you must do when you're a Christian yes. If you don't, but are repentful, you'll be fine; your faith is real. If you aren't repentful, your faith is false. Whatever the case, what we do do doesn't matter as long as we follow the Spirit, we will eventually come to Truth. If you think immersion is the only way, but later find that it's not the way, God won't be ticked that you didn't know better to begin with. You had faith that led to works and that's all that matters.

I suppose the blood and flesh passage is sort of a side note to this thread, but I would be happy to help correct your beliefs regarding that if you would like in this thread or another thread. I of course will listen intently in case I am mistaken. But there really is nothing I haven't heard before from Catholics that I haven't heard before. When the time for questions comes, Catholics never seem to know the answers. But that being said, I don't rule out the possibility that there may be someone who knows something that I am missing...

But I do know that even apologist Catholics can learn a few things from me.
In short, after addressing your issues, I think you will be prone to then stop following human doctrines instead of the Holy Spirit. Stop and pray seriously about his.

Edited March 3, 2006 by jesussaves

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 2 2006, 11:55 PM']I suppose the blood and flesh passage is sort of a side note to this thread, but I would be happy to help correct your beliefs regarding that if you would like in this thread or another thread. [/quote]Then what, pray tell, is the main topic of this thread? It appeared to be evangelization.

[jesussaves]

The main topic is believing and speading the gosple. There are two things. Believing entails if you want a debate is about faith and works debate. Spreading the gosple we appear to agree on. It's what the gosple is that we apparently disagree on. So, the flesh and blood argument is a sidenote. Whatever the Truth is, whether Catholic or not, the truth of faith and works is an issue that shouldn't be distracted with the specifics of one issue of works.

[Paphnutius]

[quote]When the time for questions comes, Catholics never seem to know the answers.[/quote]

[quote]But I do know that even apologist Catholics can learn a few things from me.
In short, after addressing your issues, I think you will be prone to then stop following human doctrines instead of the Holy Spirit. Stop and pray seriously about his.[/quote]And which one of the [i]hundreds of thousands [/i]non-Catholic Christian sets of "Holy Spirit led doctrines" do you follow?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 3 2006, 12:05 AM'] Believing entails if you want a debate is about faith and works debate. [/quote]I thought we have been through this before.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 2 2006, 11:55 PM']I suppose the blood and flesh passage is sort of a side note to this thread, but I would be happy to help correct your beliefs regarding that if you would like in this thread or another thread. I of course will listen intently in case I am mistaken. But there really is nothing I haven't heard before from Catholics that I haven't heard before. When the time for questions comes, Catholics never seem to know the answers. But that being said, I don't rule out the possibility that there may be someone who knows something that I am missing...

But I do know that even apologist Catholics can learn a few things from me. 
In short, after addressing your issues, I think you will be prone to then stop following human doctrines instead of the Holy Spirit. Stop and pray seriously about his.
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You sound very pround of yourself. Dear brother or sister, how do you know you can correct anyones belief? Have you heard from every Catholic to humbley believe you know everything we will say? What are your questions? If they are answered but not to you liking do you count it as a answer, or keep asking question after question. Please make a list of questions for us to answer so this is just easier...

You claim to be able to teach things to even apologist, without JUST quoting The Holy Bible how do you do this without doctrine? Answer you can not. Instead of Holy Church Doctrine given to us by men guided by the Holy Spirit, you have your own made up doctrine.

[Myles Domini]

JS, for the moment I'm going to entertain your objections to the Catholic faith openly and impartially. As you well know we Catholics love to use reason when it comes to faith and I believe I should at least give your claims a fair hearing before I judge the correctness or fallacy of them. Towards that end would you mind doing a point by point rebuttal of [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=113"]Luther Writes Obituary of His Own Church [/url] by Fr William Most?

Thank you
Myles

[Brother Adam]

The Gospel is indeed simple. Theology is complicated. It's the nature of the beast, no matter if you are Catholic or Protestant. That's why you should become Catholic, you have the guarentee that the Church you belong to has the promise of the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth. Or you can trust in yourself. That is after all the American thing to do. To trust in your own fancy footwork. The Holy Spirit did not lead American Protestants to 32,000 different creeds. But thank you for engaging us, even if your purpose is to try to draw us into 'jesussaves' denomination and misunderstanding of biblical truth. At least we have the chance to clear up your misunderstanding of the Bible and the Way that Jesus established that you have been no doubt indoctrinated in by your own leaders.

Sorry that you won't be winning any 'converts' here. We have read the Bible and know what it says. We prefer to be disciples of Jesus Christ and the Church that He founded 2000 years ago, not the sect that some moonbat preacher founded becuase he thought that he could interpret an ancient text in a different language than it was written in and get it right.

Edited March 3, 2006 by Brother Adam

[thessalonian]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Mar 2 2006, 11:09 PM']eating is eating, drinking is drinking.  "For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink."
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Let's not do this guys. His metaphore is a legitimate one. We have the liturgy of the word and the liturgy of the Eucharist at Mass and the two are intimately related. But the mystery of the the Eucharist is far beyond just believing. God gives us what we are to believe in and that is that we are to eat his flesh and drink his blood. The spiritual is also literal! It's both and, not either or. We should in this discussion acknowledge his metaphore.

Blessings

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 3 2006, 01:05 AM']The main topic is believing and speading the gosple. There are two things. Believing entails if you want a debate is about faith and works debate. Spreading the gosple we appear to agree on. It's what the gosple is that we apparently disagree on. So, the flesh and blood argument is a sidenote. Whatever the Truth is, whether Catholic or not, the truth of faith and works is an issue that shouldn't be distracted with the specifics of one issue of works.
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aha. Yes let's have the faith and works debate. I'll get us started.

This is from my own personal work that I wrote, so I have full permission to post it. Happy reading.


Heresy Concerning Salvation

Heresy is understood as “The obstinate denial after baptism of a truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith”. In order for us to know what is heresy and what is Christian truth there must be some standard of knowing what the truth is. The Sacred Scriptures are one of three pillars, or measures of truth. The other two are the Magisterium and Tradition. When one pillar is lacking, the other two cannot hold. The Magisterium is the servant of the Sacred Scriptures, and Tradition helps us to know that what is believed has always been believed by Christians. Both Tradition and the Magisterium are thoroughly “biblical” as Paul admonishes his disciples to follow their Tradition (especially since they lived in a time when there was no New Testament), and the structure of the Church has its beginnings in Old Testament typology and is brought to fruition when Jesus establishes his Church. Both the teachings of Jesus and Paul are antithetical to those who claim that we are made righteous before God by “faith alone”. Protestant theologian Charles Ryrie claims though that the error of the Roman Catholic Church is that it subscribes to “Semi-Pelagianism” and the answer to this is the Protestant reformation and its belief in “Faith Alone”. The Catholic Church condemned the teachings of Pelagius and the reformed teachings of Semi-Pelagianism at the Council of Orange in 529 AD. By reading about the heresies that man has invented regarding salvation, we can come to a better understanding of how salvation is accomplished. Here are a few heresies concerning grace and their description:
• Pelagianism: A theology created by Pelagius, it denies the elevation of man into the supernatural state, and denies original sin. According to the Pelagians the sin of Adam affected his descendants by way of bad example only. Thus, Christ’s deed of Redemption consists above all in His teaching and in His example of virtue. Pelagianism regarded grace as within the natural capacity of man. “If man so chooses in the exercise of his free and morally responsible will, he may grasp the eternal aid of divine grace which is bestowed according to man’s merit.” Pelagianism is “works salvation”. St. Augustine fought the heresy of Pelagianism which nearly overtook Christianity in his day through the cunning and deceptive arguments of the Pelagians. “God does not predestine the elect based on foreknowledge of their own good works. That is Pelagianism”. The idea that God would predestine us based good works that He foreknows is closely related to the reformed doctrine that once a person is ‘saved’ they are always ‘saved’ no matter what because God fore-ordains them to do good works. This eliminates man’s free will.
• Semi-Pelagianism: Introduced by Faustus of Riez (408-490) claims that God provided equal grace to everyone and thus any differences among people comes solely from their own disposition; and God provided grace for the later stages of salvation but left man to initiate his coming to God. “Semi-Pelagianism recognizes original sin, and the necessity of inner supernatural grace for preparation for justification and for the achievement of salvation, but limits the necessity and gratuitous nature of grace.” This error came to the following conclusions: “The primary desire for salvation proceeds from the natural powers of man (initium fidei, pius credulitatis affectus, pia studia). Man does not require supernatural help to persevere in virtue to the end. Man can merit de congruo the first grace by his own natural endeavors.” Put more simply, Semi-Pelagianism states that man is by his own ability able to approach God, who then meets man and gives His grace to man. Then through mans own good works, without the grace of God, is able to remain in a relationship with God and persevere to the end. “God did not predestine the elect only for the initial or later stages of salvation, leaving them on their own, at some point, to persevere in the faith. That is Semi-Pelagian.”
• Reformation Theology: It is not possible to cover the entire wide scope of the doctrines of the reformers and Protestants since there exists an almost innumerable amount of sects and divisions on these doctrines among Protestants. Without any type of authority or the assured assistance of the Holy Spirit, Protestants have been free to interpret the Bible however they so choose. However, below are a few of the more popular views:
o Luther: Luther in teaching that man is saved by “faith alone” denies man’s free will. He states more specifically that “free will is a fiction, a name without substance.” In Table Talk Luther stated that we can only act passively in our salvation, but there is no actual choice of man to make a decision about his salvation.
o Calvin: Calvin taught that man is totally depraved and incapable of any good, eliminating man’s free will. Calvin taught a principle of “double-predestination” which states that God had predestined the fall of Adam, and thus, before sin had ever entered the world, had predestined the elect to eternal life and the rest to eternal damnation. For Calvin, grace cannot ever share any existence with merit. This thought comes dangerously close to making God the author of sin, something that Calvin kept himself from concluding by not addressing the issue. Calvin calls upon a ‘secret counsel of God’ that states God predestine men to destruction which he derives from Romans 9:22 in a speculative fashion.
o Wycliffe: Wycliffe also negated the free will of man stating that “all things happen from absolute necessity”.
o Zwingli: Founder of the Anabaptists, he denied the ability of God to work in the physical world, downplaying the importance of the incarnation, and denied that God bestows grace to man through actions of faith.
o Evangelicals: Thousands of independent Protestant denominations, separate and unaffiliated with each other that hold to some similar beliefs label themselves as Evangelicals. Billy Graham is a famous example. They often mix various doctrines of the Reformers, sometimes doctrines that contradict each other according to what ever makes sense in their own Bible study. They deny any type of authoritative structure in the Church, and are at a loss how to explain the authoritative declaration of the canon of scripture.
o Fundamentalists: Separated from Evangelicals because of their typically stricter views on doctrine, they are often Calvinistic in nature, and often believe similarly to Zwingli regarding the sacraments.


How to be Saved
A simple, yet accurate guide.

As Christians, one of the most fundamental questions we ask is: Why are we here? Our answer is: to know, love, and serve God. St. Augustine, a famous convert to the Catholic faith from Paganism stated “Our hearts are restless until they rest in you God.” Because our broken relationship with God must be restored, the Bible presents two major possibilities to make this happen:
(1) Through the old covenants (via Mosaic Law or “works of the law”)
(2) Through the New Covenant (via the Paschal Mystery of Jesus Christ).
St. Paul’s theology as well as the teaching of Jesus himself, tell us that we cannot be saved by the works of the law. Even the Mosaic Law itself testifies to its “planned obsolescence”; that is planned failure (Deuteronomy 30:1-6). Observing the law and trying to obligate God to repay us with eternal life through observing the law is fruitless. We cannot obligate God to repay us with eternal life because of our broken relationship with God. The penalty of sin is death (Romans 6:23).
Salvation is a free gift of God through faith in Christ because it does not require us to fulfill the tenant’s of Mosaic Law (the only other possibility that God allows to restore our relationship with Him), an impossible task in its very nature. Original sin must be dealt with. As all have died in Adam, we are born again as adopted children in Jesus Christ (Titus 3:5; 1 Corinthians 15:22). We become members of the family of God (covenantal compared to legal salvation), as God’s firstborn, adopted children. As God’s adopted children we do not have to hold to the Mosaic Law. This however does not mean that we do not have to be obedient to Christ.
Salvation is a free gift of God (grace) through faith (an action verb). If faith is “alone”, that is, without good works, it is dead (James 2:24). If faith is dead when we die, we will not inherit eternal life. As believers and adopted sons of God, God gives us the grace to love and serve Him. The works that we do by the grace of God is different than the obligating works of the law. They are works of love, and they are justifying not in the sense that we are obligating God to repay us with the wages our works have earned, but in the same sense that St. Paul mentions when he says: “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church. (1 Colossians 1:24)” As believers, and adopted sons of God, we are called to work in the vineyard of the Lord (Matthew 20). God repays us all equally for our work in his vineyard, for the kingdom. The man who is baptized and immediately dies receives the same inheritance as the man who grew up in a Christian home and dedicated his whole life to corporal and spiritual works of mercy – eternal life. The only difference may be the treasures that are stored up (Matthew 6:19-20).
Perhaps to clarify further, in case the idea of how works justify a man in the New Covenant remains unclear. Let’s say I work for an employer in a widget factory for 40 hours for one week. The factory owner has agreed to pay me $10 an hour. At the end of the week the factory owner is obligated to pay me $400 – a just wage. Now, if I were to attempt to do the same in the kingdom of heaven, work for 40 hours and demand the wage for my good works, I would be repaid not with eternal life, but death because I am wounded by sin and my relationship with God is broken. Now lets say I am friends with the owner of the widget factory. I have lost my home and family so the owner, out of his mercy, takes me in and adopts me into his family. The owner in turn asks that I obey the rules of his house and I obey them out of gratitude. I can choose to shun the owner for his generosity, spit in his face, steal his things and forsake him, leaving the house and never looking back, and though I may still be considered an adopted son, my inheritance is at stake. This is how works operate in the kingdom. No amount of works we do can ever obligate God to repay us – repayment is always death, however through faith in Christ we become adopted sons in God’s family and totally sustained on the grace of God, we are able to work in his kingdom – an act of faith. And it is this faith that is saving faith!
If you are still unsure, that’s okay. There is plenty more when it comes to biblical evidence for our salvation, after all – it is the Bible! Let’s take one more biblical example.
Hebrews 11:17 “By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son, of whom it was said, "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named."
James 2:21-23 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God.”
Works matter, but they matter within the economy of grace. Works, apart from the grace of God as we mentioned is Semi-Pelagianism. Works done by faith are justifying because they verify our faith. Good works are an action of faith and we see this exemplified beautifully in Abraham. If Abraham said “I believe in God”, but refused obedience to God, it could not be credited to Him as righteousness. Our actions, because they are free, are important and our faith is made real by our obedience to God. We are justified, made righteous before God, not only in our initial choice to follow God, but in carrying out that choice by being obedient to the will of God, just as Abraham was. This choice of obedience is sustained completely by, and made available totally by the grace of God through redemption in Jesus Christ. Without Jesus Christ, and without the grace of God, this covenant would not exist and salvation would be lost.
Keep in mind then that “works salvation” what Protestants often claim Catholics teach, is not what Catholics believe or teach. “Works salvation” is Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism, and the Catholic Church affirms it is heresy. Rather the Catholic Church teaches what Divine Revelation has revealed – that we are saved by faith, through Christ, and that faith is not alone. And any good works done by man is done only by the grace of God and the strength that He gives us freely to overcome temptation, a choice that we in turn are free to carry out.
Let’s put this together in four concise points that make up the basics on what Catholics believe regarding salvation. It would be helpful to memorize these points as they explain a lot to non-Catholic Christians about what Catholics believe, without delving too deeply into a theological discussion. You will notice that these four simple points sharply contrast Lorianne Boettner, author of the anti-Catholic work Roman Catholicism, when he makes a chart in which he tries to explain how Catholics attempt to ‘save themselves’. This chart grossly misrepresents the reality of the economy of grace. He does, however, illuminate how confusing Catholic Christianity seems to those who wade through mess of erroneous scholarship on the Catholic faith that has been written by Protestants.

So how is one saved?
1. By the grace of God. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
2. By the response of faith in man; this is made possible by the action of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:37-38)
3. Through faith in Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
4. By obedience to the New Covenant, Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:5; 2:6-8)

In its most elementary form, this is how man is saved. Catholics do not reject the Bible. Catholics affirm each and every passage of the Bible as true, good, divinely inspired, infallible, and inerrant. Catholics believe and profess John 3:16. I hope that you are beginning to see why some people may have misunderstood Catholic teaching. When Protestant leaders misunderstand Catholic theology, and when they are able to interpret the Bible however they choose to, it leads to their congregations misunderstanding the Christian faith, and so on. However, only in Catholic theology does not only passages like John 3:16 make sense, but passages like Romans 2:6-8 make sense and don’t seem confusing or have to be explained away, and they make sense even without falling into a ‘works salvation’ trap – which we have shown is heresy. Our last goal will be to look at a case study of two seemingly conflicting passages on salvation, and how Catholic theology shows that they are not conflicting, but beautifully compliment each other to share the full story of our salvation.
Why then, does it need to get more complex than these four points? As some of us know, too often we get into arguments with each other that seem to spin in circles, each person feeling like they are getting no where. If you remember, early on we defined several terms. When people misunderstand what these terms mean, and when they fall into heresy concerning biblical teaching, and the teachings of those with authority, the Church (1 Timothy 3:15), they must be engaged in dialogue. This dialogue expands on these most basic precepts of salvation. For instance, take number 3. Just what is faith, how does it operate, and how is it made available to man? These types of questions must be answered, and as we expand on them, as we will do next, we, in a way, discover nature of an infinite God and his plan of salvation – that when you dig into it, it is more complicated than it may seem at first. Simply knowing that it takes the grace of God to be saved is easy to understand. Explaining the nature of grace and the way it operates in salvation is complicated, and easy to misunderstand. Also, by the nature of theological discussion, man is called to explore the Sacred Scriptures. The Church, as the teaching authority, expands on what we already know contemplating the very depths of our existence, of divine revelation, and of those great saints who have gone before us. Salvation is accessible to every person, no matter what intellectual capabilities they have. It does not need to be complicated, but for those who have the capacity to understand what the simple precepts of the faith mean, we have an obligation to do so in such a way that it is accurate and within the teaching authority of the Church.

Basic Biblical Facts about Salvation

We have covered a lot of ground in a very short amount of space. If the concepts that we have previously covered still don’t make sense, go back and review them. Take the time to look up passages, pray, and meditate on the scriptures. There is nothing wrong with praying the scriptures themselves. They are the Living Word of God. Resources are included at the end of this guide for further one-on-one help and study. What we need to accomplish now is to and look at all of the major doctrines throughout the Bible associated with salvation. We will cover Genesis to Revelation and hear the story of God and His people. We want to know how God acts, how man is to act, and what are the means, the way, in which we are brought from death to life. Short passages are included here for you to look up, but reading larger portions of the Bible is encouraged.

The following are 17 basic biblical facts concerning salvation. Supporting evidence and explanation are given for each on the following pages.

1. Man has a desire for God.
2. God meets man, who cannot come to God without God’s assistance.
3. Man sins of his own free will. God did not predestine the first sin of Adam, nor does he predestine any sin.
4. God permitted man to fall, but he is not the cause.
5. All acts of salvation are only possible because of the grace of God. Man cannot do good works in the eyes of God without the aid of grace.
6. It is the grace of God that has determined that Jesus Christ is the only Savior of mankind through his birth, life, and Paschal Mystery.
7. Because Jesus Christ is the only Savior of man, God requires not mere intellectual assent or belief, but faith in Christ for salvation.
8. Grace, the ability for conversion is given to all sinners.
9. God predestines the elect based on his foreknowledge, but man still has human freedom, free will, and the ability to act on his free will without coercion.
10. God deals with man not in contracts, but in covenants.
11. Faith in Christ is more than a ‘prayer for a sinner’, but a total adherence to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. It is a trust in and obedience to all he said and did.
12. The merit of man is the gift of God.
13. The example of the Prodigal Son is an example of how salvation can be lost.
14. In this way faith is not alone (James 2:24).It is the nature of faith in Christ that necessitate works for salvation.
15. God cannot force the believer to bear good fruits. Man, after salvation continues to exercise free will.
16. The inheritance of salvation is eternal life. This will be granted to men by the works that they do in life, if they ‘persevere to the end.’
17. Faith is fostered through grace by the means of grace God has given to us in the New Covenant, the sacraments. The Church administers the sacraments to affect the plan of salvation God has for the world.


1. Man has a desire for God.
a. Scripture: Psalm 105:3
b. CCC 27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for.
c. The experience of every man who lives is proof enough for this truth. Without God dwelling in us we experience a deep void that only God can fill. We were created by God, for God, and our hearts are restless until they rest in God (St. Augustine).
2. God meets man, who cannot come to God without God’s assistance.
a. Scripture: Deuteronomy 30:1-6, Genesis 3:13
b. CCC 50 Through an utterly free decision, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. This he does by revealing the mystery, his plan of loving goodness, formed from all eternity in Christ, for the benefit of all men.
c. Man can know of God, through the natural world, through his own inner experience, and by his natural reason, but he cannot come to know God without divine assistance. Man cannot first approach God on His own, but only by the grace of God and the assistance of the Holy Spirit can we come to know God.
d. The scripture passage here is the ‘key’ that unlocks the old covenants. They are covenants established so that man is the mediator of his salvation, he determines by works of the law if he will be saved instead of by faith in God. The covenants have a certain “Planned Obsolescence”, or planned failure, that any man who tries to be saved by them will fail.
3. Man sins of his own free will. God did not predestine the first sin of Adam, nor does he predestine any sin.
a. Scripture: Genesis 1-3
b. CCC 1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him." Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
c. God is not the creator of sin, everything that God creates, he created good. The three transcendentals are a testament to the creation of God – truth, beauty, and goodness. God exercises a will that is free, but perfect. God created man in His image, and like God man has a will that he can freely exercise. Man’s will however is not the same will as the will of God and man can choose against the will of God.
4. God permitted man to fall, but he is not the cause.
a. Scripture: Genesis 3:7-19; Romans 3:23,5:12-18,8:21
b. CCC 405-406 Wounded by original sin man now suffers from its effects, mainly spiritual death and a fallen state, but man does not become evil in his very nature, he is not totally corrupted.
c. This teaching exemplifies Catholicism. It represents the medium of extremes, or Truth. The two extremes in this case are Pelagianism (Adam is a mere bad example and men do not inherit original sin) and the Reformers (The fall caused the utter destruction of man’s freedom).
d. The fall did not utterly destroy what God had originally created good. Through the fall man does not become ‘evil beyond reproach’. God created man good, but because of the fall all men inherit original sin, and are inclined to do evil by their very nature (concupiscence). Man however does not become an evil creature.
5. All acts of salvation are only possible because of the grace of God. Man cannot do good works in the eyes of God without the aid of grace.
a. Scripture: Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 Cor 1:30-31
b. CCC 2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
c. “When St. Paul says that faith does not come from works, he is referring to things man can do on his own, without the help of grace. If faith did come from works, then man would have something to boast about, something which would bring salvation without dependence on Christ – which would be inadmissible, because then our Lord’s death would make no sense, nor would even the Incarnation of the Word.” – Navarre Bible Commentary on Ephesians 2:9.
d. Faith alone and Scripture alone are the two hinges upon which the Protestant Reformation rests. When the theology of Paul and Jesus are taken in their proper context it is easy to see how neither taught “faith alone.” Faith is not enough, the Bible is explicitly clear as to why it is not enough, and it is clear that man is not saved by his own works. Faith working in love is what counts and it is love that is even greater than faith! (1 Corinthians 13:13)
6. It is the grace of God that has determined that Jesus Christ is the only Savior of mankind through his birth, life, and Paschal Mystery.
a. Scripture: 2 Timothy 2:5, Ps 51:4,12
b. CCC 431 In the history of salvation God was not content to deliver Israel "out of the house of bondage" by bringing them out of Egypt. He also saves them from their sin. Because sin is always an offense against God, only he can forgive it. For this reason Israel, becoming more and more aware of the universality of sin, will no longer be able to seek salvation except by invoking the name of the Redeemer God.
c. Jesus Christ is the sole mediator of the New Covenant; he is a covenant in himself. This does not mean that other people do not have roles to play in the New Covenant. Remember, Jesus is calling us to the kingdom of heaven through the New Covenant. A kingdom has more than a king. Take the kingdom of David for instance. David was not the only person in his kingdom that exerted power. David gave power to his royal steward, second in command who carried the keys of the palace (sound familiar?). Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter, the Royal Steward in the Kingdom.
d. So no other person is the mediator of the new covenant, though others have influence and roles to play in the kingdom.
7. Because Jesus Christ is the only Savior of man, God requires not mere intellectual assent or belief, but faith in Christ for salvation.
a. Scripture: James 2:18-19
b. CCC 154 Believing is possible only by the grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed are contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions or to trust their promises to share a communion of life with one another (marriage).
c. “Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.” – St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II, 2, 9.
d. Faith is different than ‘belief’. We are told that even the ‘demons believed’ and yet they will not be saved. We have to go beyond saying “There was a man Jesus Christ and he is the Savior of the world”. It is not enough to believe that this is true. If we remember from the definition of faith, it is: “Both a gift of God and a human act by which the believer gives personal adherence to God who invites his response, and freely assents to the whole truth that God has revealed”. To have faith in Christ we must make a personal decision to follow Christ and completely and totally adhere to His teachings.
8. Grace, the ability for conversion is given to all sinners.
a. Scripture: 1 Timothy 1:2-4
b. CCC 1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
c. CCC 1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
d. God desires that all men will be saved. All men are made in the image and likeness of God, and all men are called to salvation. God calls all nations to Him. In order for this to be true God gives his the ability to convert to all men. His grace is available to anyone who would seek God and desire to be saved.
e. God then did not die only for some and not for others, but for all men.
9. God predestines the elect based on his foreknowledge, but man still has human freedom, free will, and the ability to act on his free will without coercion.
a. Scripture: Romans 8:28-30, Joshua 24:14-15
b. CCC 1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. 1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary.
c. CCC 1741 By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free.” In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free." The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God.”
d. St. Paul recognized often times that even among believers there was a tendency to sin. This is called concupiscence and is part of the fall. Even when we become adopted children of God and are brought to new life we face the temporary problem (which will no longer exist in heaven when our wills are perfectly conformed to Gods) of being inclined to sin instead of to obey the will of God. We see now through a mirror dimly, and Satan will tempt us with sin if we give him the opportunity to, making it look like a better option.
10. God deals with man not in contracts, but in covenants.
a. Scripture: Isaiah 42:6-7 (‘the servant’, typologically Jesus, is ‘a covenant’ in himself), Luke 22:14-22, Hebrews 9:15, 1 Corinthians 11:25
b. From Adam and Eve, to Moses and Abraham, to the Israelites, to Jesus Christ, God’s solution to the problem of sin is covenantal, that is filial, and not by way of legal contract. Protestants misunderstand passages in the Bible that speak of salvation being by ‘belief’ (John 3:16) because they consider only this one verse and lose the message of the Bible as a whole. Certainly, John 3:16 is true and infallible, but the interpretation of John 3:16 is only true if it is properly understood.
c. The whole purpose of our salvation is that we have a new relationship with God. In having a new relationship with God and becoming his adopted children is that we are brought again into spiritual life from spiritual death. This relationship with God is life! Our baptisms symbolize on the outside (dying and rising with Christ) what is actually taking place spiritually on the inside through our baptism. We are spiritually brought to life and enter into the new covenant as adopted children.
11. Faith in Christ is more than a ‘prayer for a sinner’, but a total adherence to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. It is a trust in and obedience to all he said and did.
a. Scripture: Matthew 16:24-28
b. CCC 143 By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God. With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, “the obedience of faith.”
c. CCC 1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us. From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to obey and submit to the Churches leaders.
d. “This indeed is love: obeying and believing in the loved one.”
e. If our faith was contractual and not covenantal perhaps a sinner’s prayer would be enough. Perhaps God would be pleased to exchange our prayer of trust for eternal life. As it is that is not the means of salvation. The means of salvation is a covenantal act of God that demands our obedience to God.
f. Since Christ is the mediator of the covenant we cannot even boast when we are obedient to God and do good works and so on (Ephesians 2:8-9). Our obedience to God, and our works to God are made possible only because of the grace of God. As we have said before, our works done out of obedience to God are justifying only in the way in which Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son is justifying – it is because of our faith in God, and it is because of that faith in God, proved by our works that we are justified before God.
g. Without our works, our faith is not proved, but rather we prove that we are choosing a path of disobedience, and like the Prodigal Son, have chosen to forsake our inheritance – eternal life, losing our relationship with God. This can be restored not through sacrifice and works, but faith in the sacrifice of Christ, and in repentance (confession).
h. The works of man are absolutely never apart from the grace of God and man’s faith in Jesus Christ. No amount of works, however great can merit grace de congruo, but only through faith in Christ and by the grace of God. The concept of works is to bear good fruit, through our faith in Christ, remaining in a state of grace, not forsaking our inheritance by rejecting God through rejecting obedience to God (works).
12. The merit of man is the gift of God.
a. Colossians 1:24
b. CCC 2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts." (Quoting St. Augustine)
c. CCC 2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
d. To clarify CCC 2010: For those unfamiliar with Catholic doctrine the catechism here intends to say that there is nothing, even by the grace of God, that we are able to accomplish towards our initial conversion, it is solely by the grace of God alone that we are brought into new life, and it is God who acts first in our salvation. Secondly, any merit that we bring to the table, is solely by the grace of God, this merit is a gift of God made available to us by our choice of obedience and faithfulness to God. We grow in holiness by our own free choice, out of cooperation with the will of God, but not on our own. To say we merit anything on our own is Semi-Pelagianism and is heresy.
13. The example of the Prodigal Son is an example of how salvation can be lost.
a. Scripture: Luke 15:11-32
b. The son never loses his position as ‘son’, however when he considers his father dead (by demanding inheritance), he loses his inheritance and must return to God in repentance.
c. If we abandon God, no longer trust in Him, and go out on our own, we will always remain God’s children through our baptism. Nothing can change that. However, our inheritance is not adopted sonship, but rather eternal life. In this way we can lose salvation, or rather a relationship with the Father, but we can never lose our place as children of God.
14. In this way faith is not alone (James 2:24).It is the nature of faith in Christ that necessitate works for salvation.
a. Scripture: James 2:14-26
b. CCC 2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
c. As complicated as a topic as this is, hopefully over the past few pages it has become clearer how salvation is not “by faith alone” nor by “faith + works”, but that salvation is becoming a part of the family of God, the kingdom of heaven, and so then there needs to be obedience to the leader of the kingdom: Jesus Christ. In this way we carry out works in obedience which proves our faith and so then we are proved righteous and justified.
d. Justification is then a gracious act of God that we cooperate in – or cooperate against (and lose therefore lose our justification). We however can do no work on our own to obligate God to justify us, but we can on the other hand on our own choose works, intellectual or otherwise which can cause in us mortal sin, severing us from God and our coming inheritance.
15. God cannot force the believer to bear good fruits. Man, after salvation continues to exercise free will.
a. Scripture: Romans 6:15, 22 (15-23 for context).
b. “What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
c. See #5
16. The inheritance of salvation is eternal life. This will be granted to men by the works that they do in life, if they ‘persevere to the end.’
a. Scripture: Matthew 24:13; Hebrews 12:1
b. CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus. Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the “blessed hope” of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the “holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
c. “He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.” – St. Gregory of Nyssa, Hom. In Cant. 8: PG 44, 941C
d. The idea of perseverance must not be understood in the legal sense in which man tries to obligate God to repay him according to his works, this is Pelagianism. Perseverance is a choice each person makes in their human freedom to have faith in Christ and follow God. Perseverance means obeying Christ, following God’s will for your life, repenting and confessing your sins, praying for forgiveness, praising and worshipping God, and generally living that life in Christ that God calls us to. God will not add up the wages of our labors on some great celestial calculator and see if we have done enough to earn heaven. God will look for faithfulness and decide, based on our faith in Christ, if we have ran the good race, and if we are worthy of those words “Well done, good and faithful servant.” It is of immense importance to get out of the mindset “Catholic doctrine means Catholics try to earn grace by their works”. Catholic doctrine does not objectify labor for grace. Rather all grace is a result of the Holy Spirit’s working in us and our free cooperation to the Holy Spirit.
e. Our free cooperation to the Holy Spirit and our working out our salvation through merit earned by the grace of God is not a “works salvation” but rather a “faith salvation”. It does not require that we ‘accomplish’ some deed to earn our due rather that we remain faithful that we trust in Christ with our whole being.
f. This doctrine allows Catholics to be full of hope for our salvation because Catholics know without any doubt that they will go to heaven and that they are in a state of grace. (Unlike Protestants who do not know if they are among the elect as they may find out, due to ‘a lack of good fruits that they were never truly saved’. This Calvinistic doctrine leads to great doubt in many Protestants.)
17. Faith is fostered through grace by the means of grace God has given to us in the New Covenant, the sacraments. The Church administers the sacraments to affect the plan of salvation God has for the world.
a. Scripture: John 20:19-22 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."
b. CCC 1114 "Adhering to the teaching of the Holy Scriptures, to the apostolic traditions, and to the consensus . . . of the Fathers," we profess that "the sacraments of the new law were . . . all instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord."
c. CCC 1115 Jesus' words and actions during his hidden life and public ministry were already salvific, for they anticipated the power of his Paschal mystery. They announced and prepared what he was going to give the Church when all was accomplished. The mysteries of Christ's life are the foundations of what he would henceforth dispense in the sacraments, through the ministers of his Church, for "what was visible in our Savior has passed over into his mysteries."
d. CCC 1116 Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ, which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.
e. Early Father: “Not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the Flesh and Blood of the incarnated Jesus” – St. Ignatius, First Apology 66, 20.
f. The sacraments especially go to show how salvation is a work of God and that man can only cooperate with God in our salvation. Each of the seven sacraments is the work of God in us. When we receive baptism God regenerates us into newness of life. When we receive the anointing of the sick, God blesses and strengthens us. These actual graces that God bestows on us through his intervention (CCC 2000) are what sustain Christians. The Eucharist especially is the source and summit of our faith, in which we receive food that does not perish, but lasts forever. It is beyond the scope of our study though to look at each of the sacraments in depth. The second pillar of the Catechism explains each and how they are necessary in the economy of salvation.

Biblical Confusion?
A Case Study of Romans 2:5-10 and Ephesians 2:8-9

The work you are reading is not made to cover every possible argument and biblical passage that non-Catholics will use to try to assert their point. Instead it is meant to give you a solid understanding of the doctrines of salvation and a fundamental guide to where non-Catholics make mistakes in biblical scholarship and help you in your own understanding of the ‘love that never ends’. This way you are better prepared for ecumenical dialogue and are able to explain what salvation is and how God has accomplished it to our Protestant brethren. Here we will however look at two of the many specific passages that seem to contradict and analyze them. Protestants assert so deeply that salvation is by “faith alone” because of a misunderstanding in which they believe merit can have no effect on man’s salvation. Below are two verses that seem to be saying two different things. The first seems to say that we are saved by ‘works’ and the second that we are saved by ‘faith’ perhaps even by ‘faith alone’. Hopefully with all you have read and looked at so far you will be able to, on your own, defend true biblical scholarship and the authentic interpretation given to us by the successors of the apostles, those personally chosen by Jesus Christ and given the Holy Spirit by Him.

Romans 2:5-10 “But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

St. Paul teaches in Romans 2 specifically, not theoretically, that we will gain eternal life based on works. Yet in Ephesians 2 Paul puts a great deal of emphasis on faith, as he does also in Romans 3-6:23. How then can works exist in balance with faith without falling into the heresy of Semi-Pelagianism as many Protestant Reformers believe the Catholic Church has done? The Catholic Church believes the same as the Bible, that those who persist in well-doing will be given eternal life according to his works.
First, nothing can be done outside of the grace of God. All works are done through Christ with the assistance of grace. God is the first mover in our salvation, justifying us through faith in His Son Jesus Christ. We respond to God’s call to have faith in Him only with the grace of God. God then gives us the grace to live obediently according to His will, without negating our free will to choose to live according to the will of God, or to choose disobedience. This free will can never be destroyed, but we can only bring our own wills into conformity with the will of God if we so choose. Even after man is initially justified by being restored to a filial covenant through rebirth as sons of God, we still have the free will to choose sin or to choose not to sin. Man cannot exist in total depravity because God did not make man intrinsically evil, but made man good. By his fall man suffers from original sin and leaves us with weakened wills that cannot only follow the will of God by divine assistance. Faith cannot exist alone. The faith of Abraham, which is accredited to him as righteousness is an active and obedient faith. He was called on by God to choose – either to be willing, by his action, to sacrifice his son, or not to. Abraham’s faith had to act, and it is in his action that he is justified by his faith in God. Faith cannot be inactive, or it is not true faith as James 2:24 teaches.
Some Protestants respond that man, in appreciation for his salvation that existed as a one time event of a contractual exchange between himself and God will do good works out of thanks and that if man does not do good works he could have not been saved. This is a misrepresentation of biblical teaching. The Bible never states in so many words, directly or indirectly, that man will do good works in thanks for salvation by prayer (I refer here to the sinner’s prayer). Yet even this line of thought dictates the necessity of works for salvation – even if it were true, which it is not, that man is irresistibility compelled to choose to do good works after initial justification, and this would show the necessary role of works in a man’s salvation.
The natural balance of works and faith is this then: That man is incapable of good works without the grace of God, that works justify a man because his works prove his faith (the example of Abraham) and faith is obedient to the will of God. That man has a free will. That God foreknows the fate of each man, because God exists outside of the constraints of time, and predestines those He knows will ultimately persevere to the end to be part of His elect (Romans 8:28-30). Yet, God, as wishes all men to be saved, does not predestine men to damnation. All men have the free will, including those that will choose damnation to either choose God, or choose destruction and that God does not compel any man to choose destruction but gives all men the choice of salvation. This is a mystery that God knows being outside of time, and that man has free will being inside of time, yet they do not conflict each other. That the faith of man, if he chooses faith, must be placed in Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God and man, because it is through no other man that a person is saved, except the man Jesus Christ.

[Church Punk]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 3 2006, 01:55 AM']There are certain things you must do when you're a Christian yes. If you don't, but are repentful, you'll be fine; your faith is real. If you aren't repentful, your faith is false. Whatever the case, what we do do doesn't matter as long as we follow the Spirit, we will eventually come to Truth....
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How do you know you are following the Spirit and not some other unseen force, without having a solid foundation and interpetation of what the works of the Spirit are? How do you know you interpeting scripure in the correct sense that the writer intended? What proof do you bring that affirms that your interpetation of these scripture verses are correct?

[homeschoolmom]

What's a "moonbat"?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 3 2006, 06:46 AM']Let's not do this guys.  His metaphore is a legitimate one.  We should in this discussion acknowledge his metaphore.[/quote]While his metaphor is a valid one, I found that the context of the discussion was limiting the interpretation of the passage to a literal one and therefore would have excluded his understanding which left no room at all for the literal. Had the metaphor or the context been broader I would not have felt a need to call it into question, but you are correct. His metaphor is valid when it is understood to be coupled with the literal understanding.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Mar 3 2006, 09:09 AM']What's a "moonbat"?
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a pet name Shaun Hannity has for liberals. :