Why don't protestants convert more easily?

[God the Father]

Near as I can figure, protestantism has less rules?

Of course I may be wrong, consdering I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[N/A Gone]

Yea, i have some issues here. major ones, but I will play with this tommorow. The whole concept of protestants not being saved, or that the titus verse has any relevence to them is in bad taste.

but im with my honey, so I will play with this tommorow night.

thes, we can box

[Maria]

I haven't read all the comments, but I do know that, having spoken/debated with a number of P/protestants over the years, I can sort of understand their point of view. Almost. In any case, it doesn't seem quite so obvious as it did before. It especially depends, I think, on the way questions are approched and discussed.

[Colin]

Hi there,
I have been enjoying reading through this thread, and thought perhaps to share a bit of my own history might help?
As a (Baptist) teenager, I read through the Old Testament prophets, and was overwhelmed by the love of God for his people. Even when they turnrd their backs on him, his love never gave up. Anyway, I felt like God shared some of that love with me, and when I graduated, I then spent 5 fulfilling years on the mission field. I got chronic hepatitus as a souveneer, and had to return to Australia with my wife and the first 2 of our now 4 children.
Here I was too sick to work, but passed the time happily studying for theology degrees, while my wife ran our church's street people ministry. About a year ago, I heard of a small mission school in Pakistan which needed house parents. Even though it seemed impossible, I felt God impress this need on my heart, and for about 3 months we discussed it as a family. My Bible readings when I read of the call were "if any one would be my disciple, let him deny himself, pick up his cross and follow me".
So, after 3 months, we realised we needed to make a decision by the end of the week, so we could have time to apply etc. That week, every fear I had seemed to both surface and be answered by God's word. I read a selection of Scriptures each day, so as to get through the Bible once a year, anyway, the first fear was simply that of leaving safe, quiet Australia for Pakistan. My reading that day was "I will keep your going out and your coming back". The next day, I wrestled with taking my 13 year old daughter to Pakistan, and my reading from Ezekiel included "I will bring your sons and your daughters to you". As my eldest son said, how many verses in the Bible specify daughters in them? The final day I simply had my health concerns. Lying in bed at noon, feeling very ill, I thought, "God, I feel you are calling us to Pakistan, but do you know where I am right now - sick in bed - how can I go?" That day's Psalm said, "before you think I know your thoughts, I know ... when you are sitting, lying down" Exactly what I needed to know! God knew exactly where I was, and what I was thinking, I could trust him to guide and care for me.
So, after prayer and discussion, we decided as a family this was God's will for us. Friends said we would never be accepted due to my health, but 6 months later we arrived in Pakistan. We have now been here 7 months, 7 difficult, demanding months where we have had to trust and call out to God. My health has improved dramatically, and my children are growing in faith.
We are told the glory of our faith is "Christ in you, the hope of Glory". God uses his word to speak to each of us differently as we need, as his will is different for each of us. It is a personal leading as he loves each of us personally.
Hope this helps some, God bless, Colin

[Paphnutius]

Thank you for sharing Colin, really. I did some missionary work in Honduras a year or so back and it is indeed a rewarding experience. You really get a feel for the early Church as you see people's eye light up with spiritual hunger and thirst as you speak about Christ. I can only imagine that is what the first apostles must have felt like when they received the first converts.

I believe I understand what you are saying about the week when God seemed to answer all your questions. Catholics are by no means opposed to the Bible speaking to each person differently in a subjective sense. This must happen because we each have different lives, different experiences, and so forth. When two people read the Scripture they will see and apply it in different ways because of their differences. The key there is apply. We do not believe that each person is his own magesterium, but that there is an objective interpretation to the Scriptures. Of course God may and does speak to us through the Scriptures and our experiences, but as far as dogmatic interpretations, there can only be one.

One person may read the exact same Scripture as the person next to him, but hear something different and apply it differently because of what is going on in his life at that moment. This does not, however, change the fact that when Paul or Isaiah said X, he meant X and not X to one person, Y to another person, and Z to yet another. So we do not really call it personal revelation so much as personal application of the one truth.

I would highly encourage you to look into the practice of Lectio Divina. It is a practice of reading and praying the Scriptures that has been in the Church for well over 1500 years. I think you might like it.

[Era Might]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 10:27 AM']Me personally, as an African American and growing up in predominatly black churches in the south, I'm accustomed to a "certain" type of worship, and so are some other Evangelical denominations.  It is a culture clash that makes us "bored" during Catholic ceromonies, and for it to be deemed as stale and lifeless.  To adhere to a set way to worship and not to worship the way that is done in our separate traditions is a hard thing to break for it is part of our culture to be vocal and "on fire" for the Lord.  To do anything otherwise would be like telling us we cant dance at our own wedding.[right][snapback]902779[/snapback][/right]
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A book you might check out is "Evangelical Is Not Enough" by Thomas Howard. It's a look at Liturgical worship. Although Howard is now Catholic, he wrote the book when he was still Protestant.

[Peccator]

I for one do not believe we should be too hard on the Prots...in alot of respects we are were we are ONLY out of God's Grace (with a capital G).

I grew up Dutch Refomed and in a very anti-Catholic and racist enviroment....the only reason I even entered a Catholic Church was out of sheer curiousity and wanting to see whether it was really so evil as I heared. Imagion my surprise when I wanted to come back to the evening mass

In a nutshell, conversion is no easy matter for most people...it often( as it did me) an entire paradigm shift...which is often not very pleasant. Realising that you've been lied to, and the truth was under you nose the whole time...

Lets not be so hard on them...

Edited March 5, 2006 by Peccator

[Honour]

divorce

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 2 2006, 09:06 AM']I've been thinking alot about this and Revprodeji's thread caused me to post it.  1 Titus 10 says that God "desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth".  So why is it that this does not happen more often.  If God's grace is at work to bring this about our RCIA classes should be full.  But I am dissapointed every year at how few people are showing up in RCIA in the  two parishes I attend when there are so many people out there without the truths of the Catholic faith.  It saddens me.  St. Francis De Sales converted I believe it was nearly 60,000 in just a few years in a very Calvinist, anti-catholic town.  What is wrong here?

Thoughts?
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[/quote] Protestants know what we believe, in general, and why, and are less likely to be duped. :

[dspen2005]

Prots begin with a fundamentally different anthropology than Catholics do. For the most part, Prots ascent to the notion that man is utterly depraved and corrupt. Catholics hold that our nature is 'profoundly wounded': there is clear and distinct difference in these two beginnings. When you begin at two radically different points, you will inevitably end up at two different junctures and endpoints.

This radical difference accounts for the difficulty in bring Prots to the Faith. Also, we have to understand that we can never wholly 'reason' ourselves to the Faith. At some point, we must have faith and acknowledge the truths of the Church's timeless teaching.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Mar 5 2006, 06:54 PM']Protestants know what we believe, in general, and why, and are less likely to be duped.  :
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[/quote]
interesting statement . . . with 30,000 american denominations that generally disagree on key scriptural statements, i'm not sure it's defensible. . . . actually, i guess i could be wrong . . . if you don't care about truth, but only what you believe, then it *is* defensible . . . but that means Protestants don't really search for truth, but for their personal beliefs.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Mar 5 2006, 06:04 PM']interesting statement . . . with 30,000 american denominations that generally disagree on key scriptural statements, i'm not sure it's defensible.  . . . actually, i guess i could be wrong . . . [right][snapback]903734[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
There are only six different doctrines in most of Protestantism that are of salvic significance. Those are like the nature of God and the trinity, salvation by faith, and I forget what else at the moment. (5:30 am and I can't sleep)

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Mar 5 2006, 06:04 PM']if you don't care about truth, but only what you believe, then it *is* defensible . . . [but that means Protestants don't really search for truth, but for their personal beliefs.
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[/quote]
Alright. I'm offended. No reasonable Christian of any church simply chooses what he or she would like to believe-well, short of having a thick head and hard heart. It is the search for truth that has lead to many of the denominations and that leads much of Protestant Bible study. I'll bet most of the Protestant denominations agree on those six doctrines. Where I guess Catholics view the Catholic Church as part of the truth, Protestants look straight at Scripture for truth and build from there. It is salvation that is most consequential in eternity.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Mar 5 2006, 07:54 PM']Protestants know what we believe, in general, and why, and are less likely to be duped.  :
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On the other hand I'd say Protestants are the most likely to be duped with the doctrine of "trust in yourself for the doctrine of your salvation". As Pap said, when you come at scripture with personal bias, you naturally will not understand scripture as it is intended to be understood.

Edited March 6, 2006 by Brother Adam

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Honour' date='Mar 5 2006, 10:55 AM']divorce
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The Catholic Church's belief about divorce? If there is anything we can help you out with on this topic, please let us know. I'd be happy to send you a free tape or CD by Dr. Hahn on the indissolvability of marriage.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Alright.  I'm offended.  No reasonable Christian of any church simply chooses what he or she would like to believe-well, short of having a thick head and hard heart.  It is the search for truth that has lead to many of the denominations and that leads much of Protestant Bible study.  I'll bet most of the Protestant denominations agree on those six doctrines.  Where I guess Catholics view the Catholic Church as part of the truth, Protestants look straight at Scripture for truth and build from there.  It is salvation that is most consequential in eternity.[/quote]

I am certianly sorry that you are offended. Perhaps we should put it another way. Everyone, you, me, Colin, Briguy, ICTHUS, any Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Athiest, Gnostic, Wiccan, all has to approach the scriptures somehow. You cannot not take a stance on the scriptures. You have to decide what you are going to do with them. Are they inspired? Are they inerrant? Which scriptures are sacred, which are not? What canon do we follow? Are they the final authority? How do we interpret them? All of these questions leave us jaded in one sense or another.

Protestants love Jesus. They are concerned for something called 'eternal salvation' and want people to be 'saved'. To say that isn't true would be absurd. Catholics as well are concerned about eternal salvation and want to see people saved. To say that isn't true would be absurd.

When we look at the scriptures with our own eyes though, we approach them with biases, we may have a high Christology, or a low Christology. We may approach them believing that we must look to them by ourselves and figure out the truth by looking to them by ourself and seek no other authority and not trust in Tradition. Or we may look at them through the lense of 2000 years of Christian history, through the lense of the Church following St. Peter and his successors. It really is a subjective decision on how to look at the scriptures. How ever our subjective decision on how we approach scripture is going to affect how we interpret it. The scriptures are ambigous. That is why Protestants have 32,000 sects. You can look at a verse and say 'aha this means such and such'. Another person can look at the same verse and get something totally different. This is okay to a certian extent. It is when we are wrong about the authors intent that it is not okay. And it is easy to be wrong about the authors intent. There is too much to look at and too much to consider. Fundamental biblical theology is a task wrought with difficulty. It is extremely difficult to be right and very easy to be wrong. It is why Protestants have 32,000 denominations. There are at least 32,000 different interpretations on scripture. Which begs the question, what makes any particular Protestant correct?

Now you also assert that almost all Protestants would agree with six basic doctrines, I'll grant you that most would believe Jesus is God, but I wouldn't go too much further as you begin to dig through doctrine (Handbook on Denominations is a good source). However, Jesus did not intend for a Church that was divided like Protestants are, and certiainly did not intend that we would only know 'six' or so truths with certianty. The lowest common denominator is not a good approach to theology in order to ensure truth. It is also a question, are these six principles even correct. All Arians believed that Jesus was a creature, created by God, but that doesn't make all Arians correct, even if they are united together. There are 1 billion Catholics, who all believe in the Catholic Church, but you would likely assert that doesn't necessarily make Catholics correct. And I agree, just because we all agree isn't what makes us correct.

But we are here in ecumenical dialogue. Its a first good step. It would be my hope for all of the non-Catholics here just not to assume. Just be honest with yourself, with your studies, with us. And we will do the same.

Blessings,
Adam