Why don't protestants convert more easily?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 2 2006, 10:41 AM']The anti-Catholic movement has made it a scary idea for a Protestant to become Catholic. Look how long it took me and I had the prayers and guidance of everyone on phatmass. If you tell a lie enough times, people begin to believe it. The Catholic Church has been lied about in the US for a long, long time, especially through people like Jack Chick, Binny Hinn, Boettner, McCarthy, Swaggart, White, and others.

When you are told by your pastor that you will be worshipping Satan for becoming Catholic, it takes time and prayer.
[right][snapback]901500[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Point well taken but grace should be able to overcome this.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 2 2006, 04:53 PM']Sin???  Ours and theirs???  : 
[right][snapback]901507[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Ours. St Francis de Sales was successful because he was [b]a saint[/b]. As I said in my blogspot entry quoting St Francis a sick doctor can cure sick patients. But if your doctor looks like a dying wreck are you going to trust his knowledge however impeccable it might look on paper? Many Catholics just dont give off the impression of being credible Christians to believe anything that they might have to say about the gospel. One has to remember that one of the main tools of the Protestant pamphlet wars of the 16th century was to highlight the vices of the Catholic clergy. Indeed, heretics have consistently used this technique to discredit what Catholic preachers had to say.

When St Dominic de Guzman arrived in Southern France he knew that the wellfed carriage driven preachers would never be believed when contrasted to the rabidly aesthetic Cathari leaders. For this reason he founded a convent of Dominican Nuns with the charter to be even more austere than the Albigensians and decided to take over the preaching work himself.

If you dont look trustworthy nobody is going to trust you. Too many Protestants, non-Christians and unbelievers have encountered that modernist too many, that cafeteria Catholic too much, that faithful Catholic too little to find the Catholic gospel attractive. What could be so great about the Catholic gospel if the majority of Catholics dont appear to be living it? Would you leave your 'spirit filled' community to join a modernist parish?

[thessalonian]

Very good post Myles. I can't access your blog here but look forward to reading it later. You raise some excellent points. I actually would say both our sins and theirs but I think we focus too much on theirs when that is the part we cannot do anything about. Your post addresses what we MUST do something about. We have to clean up our act. We must bring passion for our faith into our lives. We have to reach Catholics before we can reach them and we have to become better Catholics ourselves before we can do anything about any of this.

Edited March 2, 2006 by thessalonian

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Mar 2 2006, 11:51 AM']It can be big decision for a lifelong, active Protestant to become Catholic. It has many, many ramifications in terms of relationships and other areas ... and while those ramifications are, in a sense, temporal, they are nonetheless a big deal. If someone takes a while to count the cost before embarking on such a journey, I don’t fault them one bit. Evangelism is a great thing, but it’s important not to forget that we’re talking about people for whom conversion will have real consequences.
[right][snapback]901470[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
"And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting." - Matthew 19:29

I think the main problems are:

- decline of family life. Why would I want to be Catholic if I'm not seeing a domestic church in most Catholic families?

- lack of charity. A lot of people leave the Church not for doctrinal reasons, but because someone hurt them. Then they go to nicer cushier Protestant churches where there is charity. Let us not forget that St. Francis de Sales was always overflowing with charity.

- protestants often perceive our liturgy as "boring" or "dead," partly because many Catholics have not been catechized well enough to actually KNOW what is going on at Mass. There are still a lot of Catholics who just go through the motions.

- lack of priests + religious

- spineless bishops + priests who are afraid to preach about hard doctrines, like contraception + homosexuality.

- the Catholic Church isn't making good use of today's media. Yeah, I know about EWTN and I watch it often, but let's just face it... they don't have the resources they need to be producing something really brilliant. The Passion was a wonderful work of cinematic art, but I don't see many other Catholics stepping up to the plate trying to make films with Catholic values. Most Catholics don't have the kind of budget to make films like the Passion, but the independent film industry isn't producing any decent Catholic films and I don't see any real Catholic presence there. Another problem with the Catholic film industry is that most of what we produce is lacking in quality and we've lost our sense of storytelling. There aren't enough Catholic radio stations, and the Catholic radio stations that do exist play lame music that even good Catholics wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.

- Catholics don't know enough about the Bible. How are we supposed to dialogue with sola scriptura protestants if the Bible isn't part our prayer life? Most Catholics haven't read the whole Bible, and few have even read a significant amount of it. Following the Sunday readings is not enough.

[Era Might]

God leads people on his time.

I was thinking today about my brother, who is a devout Protestant. In one sense, I'm happy that he is a believer at all. But I started to think about the Eucharist, and the Saints, and all the things I have in the Catholic Church. And like you said, it saddens me to know that he doesn't have this. The simple act of praying the Rosary, which I take for granted, I would be overjoyed if he could know the peace it gives.

But, Protestant communities need holy people too. Perhaps God permits some to continue in honest faith within a non-Catholic setting so that they can be an influence to those people, in one way or another.

"O the depths of the wisdom and the knowledge of God..."

[Era Might]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Mar 2 2006, 11:51 AM']I'd love to see every Christian I know become Catholic. But do I think God can still save them if they don't become Catholic? Yes. It can be big decision for a lifelong, active Protestant to become Catholic. It has many, many ramifications in terms of relationships and other areas ... and while those ramifications are, in a sense, temporal, they are nonetheless a big deal.
[right][snapback]901470[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Well said.

We have to be careful about taking an "altar call" approach. The evangelical witness tends to emphasize a "moment" in which someone makes a decision. But conversion is a lifelong process. Just because someone does or doesn't make a decision at this moment is not the most important thing. We can plant a seed, and let God water it when the time is right.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 2 2006, 04:14 PM']Well said.

We have to be careful about taking an "altar call" approach. The evangelical witness tends to emphasize a "moment" in which someone makes a decision. But conversion is a lifelong process. Just because someone does or doesn't make a decision at this moment is not the most important thing. We can plant a seed, and let God water it when the time is right.
[right][snapback]901716[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Exactly.

Growing up Protestant, we were constantly encouraged to urge people towards making the "one saving decision" that would change the direction of their lives forever. That's how I always thought of conversion, as one big turn of my heart away from sin and toward God ... which never fit with my actual experience. That's why as a kid I prayed over and over and over to "receive Christ into my heart" ... I kept sinning, so I was sure my earlier decisions just hadn't properly taken.

Nowadays, I see conversion more as a process, my heart's long, slow turning toward righteousness and away from sin, and the small steps in learning how to love as God loves. I think in seeing that, my attitude on evangelization has changed. I'm not in it for the short term "one big decision" but for the long-term relationship -- encouraging growth and conversion (and being encouraged myself).

[Sojourner]

There's actually a really fascinating movie that deals with evangelization, [url="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0189584/"]The Big Kahuna[/url], with Kevin Spacey and Danny Devito. It's been a while since I watched it, but I found it to be quite thought-provoking.

[jswranch]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 2 2006, 09:06 AM']I've been thinking alot about this and Revprodeji's thread caused me to post it.  1 Titus 10 says that God "desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth".  So why is it that this does not happen more often.  If God's grace is at work to bring this about our RCIA classes should be full.  But I am dissapointed every year at how few people are showing up in RCIA in the  two parishes I attend when there are so many people out there without the truths of the Catholic faith.  It saddens me.  St. Francis De Sales converted I believe it was nearly 60,000 in just a few years in a very Calvinist, anti-catholic town.  What is wrong here?

Thoughts?
[right][snapback]901446[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Look to the gospels. Jesus came with a hard message. Few accepted, most rejected (see Luke). These days the deposit of faith (held by the Catholic Church) may be too difficult for some to accept. So, they make up their own deposit of faith (new denominations).

To be fair, I find some Protestants more dedicated to their faith than those with whom I attend Sunday Mass.



[quote name='Lil Red' date='Mar 2 2006, 10:29 AM']lack of evangelization by faithful Catholics.
[right][snapback]901494[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I agree.
As I finish up RCIA, one critique I have is that the candidates/catecumens are not imbued with a sense of triumph/glory of the church in which they are called to share it. The 'holy cow, this is awsome!' just is not there.


To correct the situation, I am listening to a Paul Martin speach on sharing the faith (what to and not to do).

[heyyoimjohnny]

I think lack of evangelization sums it up. God 's certainly waiting to outpour the grace, but He likes to use people as channels of grace. Not so many channels of grace, not so much grace.

[desertwoman]

As a protestant studying the Catholic faith, it is a very hard decision to make to convert over to the universal church.

Protestants believe that we have the fullness of truth and that the Catholic Church has not. It is hard for a true Catholic to convert to Protestantism as it is for a Prostestant to convert to Catholicism because we both believe with our hearts that the truth lies here.

Me personally, as an African American and growing up in predominatly black churches in the south, I'm accustomed to a "certain" type of worship, and so are some other Evangelical denominations. It is a culture clash that makes us "bored" during Catholic ceromonies, and for it to be deemed as stale and lifeless. To adhere to a set way to worship and not to worship the way that is done in our separate traditions is a hard thing to break for it is part of our culture to be vocal and "on fire" for the Lord. To do anything otherwise would be like telling us we cant dance at our own wedding.

I also know one of the hardest reasons for conversion, in my part and also for other Protestants, is rugged individualism. To submit and follow what the Pope has decreed and the magistrium has found to be Biblicaly correct is a tough pill to swallow. Being raised to believe that everyone has a revelation that is for that one person and different for the next does hinder things. For example, I will read a scripture and get a "personal revalation" from it, while Bobby will read the same scripture and get his own revalation from it, and in our secta... this is all good! That instead of Christ revealing himself through scripture the same way everytime for he never changes, we personalize him to our own agenda. So the Christ revealed in scripture to me is different from Bobby because I could very well be leaning unto my own interpreation and not guided by the Holy Spirit.

And so when you ask any Protestant, including myself, if we know if we are leaning unto our own interpretation., it will be hard to explain, or at least for me to tell you otherwise.

Another thing is community. For me, when I go visit another church, there are greeters. They make me feel welcome and they want to hang out with me with different activities available through the church. I mean, almost every different church that I visited had a program or mission trip or actvity for people with different talents to particpate in. No one really had an excuse not to particpate in the daily activites of the church because there was something for everyone to do. Anyone could use the talent God gave them to give him praise and glory in his/her unique way.

In many black churches around the country we have testamonial servieces where we say what God has done in our lives. By hearing testamonies everyday and building intimate relationships with the members day to day, we can see how God is moving in each others lives. With us protestants, I guess we would like to know how God is moving in your life, for if God is moving in you lives, then we know that what you say is legit.


But those are a few reasons why Protestants, including myself, are harder to convert.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']I will read a scripture and get a "personal revalation" from it, while Bobby will read the same scripture and get his own revalation from it, and in our secta... this is all good!  That instead of Christ revealing himself through scripture the same way everytime for he never changes, we personalize him to our own agenda.  So the Christ revealed in scripture to me is different from Bobby because I could very well be leaning unto my own interpreation and not guided by the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

Fascinating . . . that actually clears up a little bit how Protestants can justify the thousands of denominations. . . the Bible is just a massive form of relativism. "That may be right for you, but it's not right for me."

*ponders*

Well . . . if that's the way the enemy's gonna shield his victims from the truth, then that's something we're gonna need to deal with . . . the question becomes "How?"

Edited March 4, 2006 by MagiDragon

[jswranch]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']
Protestants believe that we have the fullness of truth and that the Catholic Church has not. 

[right][snapback]902779[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]



This is not a fully correct statement. When Protestants agree the Catholic Church does not have the fullness of truth, it seems to be the only thing they agree on!!! When someone starts a sentence with "Protetants believe..." I usually stop them. Protestants agree on very little as a whole. That is why there are +30,000 denominations. Granted, the Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) looks a whole lot like the Presbyterian Church, United States of America (PCUSA) and the other 10 branches of Presbyterianism.



[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']
Me personally, as an African American and growing up in predominatly black churches in the south, I'm accustomed to a "certain" type of worship, and so are some other Evangelical denominations.  It is a culture clash that makes us "bored" during Catholic ceromonies, and for it to be deemed as stale and lifeless. 

[right][snapback]902779[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

A further understanding of what the eucharist is, what it means, and the power of how the Holy Spirit has guided and protected the mass would greatly increase your interest vice boredem in 'Catholic Ceromonies.'

If you wish to do so, I suggest you begin a New Testiment gospel study of all the times Jesus mentions blood, wine, bread, body, flesh, food, and hunger.


[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']
To do anything otherwise would be like telling us we cant dance at our own wedding. 

...

I also know one of the hardest reasons for conversion, in my part and also for other Protestants, is rugged individualism.  To submit and follow what the Pope has decreed and the magistrium has found to be Biblicaly correct is a tough pill to swallow.  Being raised to believe that everyone has a revelation that is for that one person and different for the next does hinder things.  For example, I will read a scripture and get a "personal revalation" from it, while Bobby will read the same scripture and get his own revalation from it, and in our secta... this is all good! 

That instead of Christ revealing himself through scripture the same way everytime for he never changes, we personalize him to our own agenda.  So the Christ revealed in scripture to me is different from Bobby because I could very well be leaning unto my own interpreation and not guided by the Holy Spirit.

[right][snapback]902779[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


As some prominent Protestant denominations have held that dancing is a blatent sin, you help aid my previous argument. There is little consensus on beliefs between various denominations. Either God forbids dancing or he does not. If dancing is an offense which damages our relationship with God, then it is an offense for all to dance. There is no relative morality. You may read the bible, pray, and find the Holy Spirit is leading you to believe it is just fine to dance at your wedding. Another person may read the bible, pray and find the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe God always finds dancing sinfull. Do you see the inconsistancy in this pattern? Apply this logic and design to two people who are weighing the decision to have an abortion or engage in
homosexual relations.



[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']
Another thing is community.  For me, when I go visit another church, there are greeters.  They make me feel welcome and they want to hang out with me with different activities available through the church.  I mean, almost every different church that I visited had a program or mission trip or actvity for people with different talents to particpate in. 

[right][snapback]902779[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I like greeters too. I wish our parish greeters were more gentile. However, with larger Catholic parishes (most parishes), it is too difficult do decide who is and who is not a visitor.

However, the kindness of the greeters does not define the truth an individual church professes. Either God dictated truth to Joseph Smith and the Mormons or he did not. The kindness of my good Mormon friends does not prove or disprove their faith.


[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']In many black churches around the country we have testamonial services where we say what God has done in our lives.  By hearing testamonies everyday and building intimate relationships with the members day to day, we can see how God is moving in each others lives.  With us protestants, I guess we would like to know how God is moving in your life, for if God is moving in you lives, then we know that what you say is legit.
[right][snapback]902779[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

There are a number of black Catholic Churches. Check out

[url="http://www.usccb.org/saac/leadership.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/saac/leadership.shtml[/url] or [url="http://www.nbccongress.org/"]http://www.nbccongress.org/[/url]


to find a black catholic chruch see:
[url="http://www.nbccongress.org/aboutus/nbcc-regions/"]http://www.nbccongress.org/aboutus/nbcc-regions/[/url] or

These chruches are 100% Roman Catholic but may have a more 'evangelical' feel to them (gospel music, prolonged masses, livelier worship etc..)



[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']But those are a few reasons why Protestants, including myself, are harder to convert.

[right][snapback]902779[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Pray that Jesus (and gulp! maybe Mary) lead you to the truth AND give you the strength necessary to follow that truth!

I hope this helps!

[Anastasia13]

Maybe disagreements about key salvic issues. The fate of a soul is not to be taken as lightly as even something as serious as reverence for Mary or the nature of the eucharist.

Desertwoman has some great points in her post.

Edited March 4, 2006 by Light and Truth

[desertwoman]

Thanks for the prayers.

It is a hard road, and I thank God that he has opened my heart to hear and recieve the message that yall are sending me. For in the past, I wouldnt have heard any of it. But now, he has bestowed upon me an open heart and mind. Thanks again for the prayers. I will post some of my thoughts tfor yall later.