Limited Atonement

[ICTHUS]

Aside from Mr. Bruce here: Is anyone going to respond to my last assertion of the Thomist view of Limited Atonement?

Calling polar bear...

Edited January 2, 2004 by ICTHUS

[p0lar_bear]

ICTHUS,

I think I responded to you; see the last post on page three. If you need more or if that seemed to answer the wrong question, let me know. Also, could you point me to where Thomas discusses this?

[p0lar_bear]

Circle_Master,

I must be completely missing something. I'm honestly not sure what your question is. Are you claiming that everyone will be saved?

Catholics would agree that Christ died for all. The offer of salvation is made to everyone, but some choose not to accept it.

[Circle_Master]

then you don't believe in limited atonement. that is good to know

and no, I don't believe everyone will be saved :P

Edited January 2, 2004 by Circle_Master

[ICTHUS]

then you don't believe in limited atonement. that is good to know

Bruce,

I believe in Limited Atonement, just not in the Calvinistic sense of the word. If you'd been reading my posts, you would understand.

[ICTHUS]

ICTHUS,

Sorry, I haven't been on much lately...Christmas and family and stuff...

I do not think that your position is orthodox because it still removes free will by making the salvation of an individual person the result of God's specific choice rather than that of the person.

Even with God, foreknowledge is not the equivolent of predestination in the sense of an act of His will. Being outside of time (nifty thing that...), God knows from all eternity who will accept His gift of salvation. However, the person does not choose God because He knows it, He knows it because the person chooses God.

From all eternity, God's plan of salvation includes that man possesses free will and that man must freely choose to follow Him in order to gain salvation. Scripture tells us that God wills that all men be saved. However, He also wills that we have the freedom to choose God or 'not-God.' It is His will that we have that choice, it is His will that the choice of salvation, in a manner of speaking, lies with us. He offers it to everyone, knowing that some will choose to accept it and others to reject it. His knowledge in no way affects or infringes on man's free will. The very word "Elect" implies that the choice comes from outside of the person.

The choice to accept or reject God comes from the person; otherwise, it is not an "I act," but an "it happens" (using phrasing from JPII's philosophy).

Could you tell me where in the Summa Aquinas discusses this? If I read it, I may be better able to respond to you.

I do not think that your position is orthodox because it still removes free will by making the salvation of an individual person the result of God's specific choice rather than that of the person.

No, it does not remove free will, for God man exercises his free will in accordance with Gods predestinative plan.

As Thomas says, (Summa Theologica, Question 23, Article 2)

I answer that, It is fitting that God should predestine men. For all things are subject to His providence, as was shown above (22, 2). Now it belongs to providence to direct things towards their end, as was also said (22, 1, 2). The end towards which created things are directed by God is twofold; one which exceeds all proportion and faculty of created nature; and this end is life eternal, that consists in seeing God which is above the nature of every creature, as shown above (12, 4). The other end, however, is proportionate to created nature, to which end created being can attain according to the power of its nature. Now if a thing cannot attain to something by the power of its nature, it must be directed thereto by another; thus, an arrow is directed by the archer towards a mark. Hence, properly speaking, a rational creature, capable of eternal life, is led towards it, directed, as it were, by God. The reason of that direction pre-exists in God; as in Him is the type of the order of all things towards an end, which we proved above to be providence. Now the type in the mind of the doer of something to be done, is a kind of pre-existence in him of the thing to be done. Hence the type of the aforesaid direction of a rational creature towards the end of life eternal is called predestination. For to destine, is to direct or send. Thus it is clear that predestination, as regards its objects, is a part of providence.

(Me) It is written; "In his mind a man plans his course, but the LORD directs his steps." - (Proverbs 16:9) Therefore a man uses his free will to plan his course, but ultimately it is the Lord who directs his steps towards good.

[Bruce S]

Bruce,

I believe in Limited Atonement, just not in the Calvinistic sense of the word. If you'd been reading my posts, you would understand.

Perhaps I would, IF...I were even in this thread, I'm not, you are confusing me with Circle Ikky.

Bless ya dude.

[ICTHUS]

bumped for polar bear

[p0lar_bear]

ICTHUS,

I'm going to be a bit busy this week, but I will get back to you as soon as I can.

Also, when giving references to the Summa Theologica, don't forget to include which part (in this case in was in the First Part). The numbering of the questions starts over in each part.

God Bless

[p0lar_bear]

ICTHUS,

This is copied from somewhere else, but gives kind of a synopsis of what I'm trying to get at:

To understand how the Catholic Church views predestination, we must first understand some fundamental concepts. First, the Catholic Church unequivocally teaches that the source of all things is God. This includes grace, the act of faith and even our good works (Eph. 2:8-10; Jas. 1:17, 18). God alone initiates salvation. He always turns toward man first and seeks him, as when God walked in the Garden (Gen. 3:8). Man does not seek God or turn to him without God first calling man to Himself (Jn. 6:37, 44; 1 Jn. 4:10,19). Second, God’s initiative does not exclude man’s free response, but demands it (Catechism of the Catholic Church [Catechism], nos. 154, 155, 2002; Phil. 2:12, 13). In other words, God wills that man be free to choose His grace or reject it. Third, salvation is extended to each and every human person, not limited to just some, and one can fall away from grace (Heb. 2:1-4; 6:4; 2 Pet. 1:10; 3:9; 1 Jn. 5:16, 17). Furthermore, it is imperative that once one is touched by grace, he perseveres in charity lest he forfeit the free gift of salvation (Lumen Gentium [LG], no. 14). Within the confines of these principles, Catholics have sought to understand the mystery of predestination. Though opinions and formulations have varied among Catholic theologians, with these principles left intact, there is room for legitimate speculation.

Now, I may be reading your posts wrong, but...

I think where you are getting off course is in the second point (man's free response). You seem to be saying that man has a free choice to choose what God already chose for him, kind of like Ford's "a man can get a Ford in any color he wants, so long as it's black." If you maintain that man is fully free to choose God or not choose God, to respond to or reject His grace, then I think you're OK. Your limited atonement seems to rather depend on irresitable grace, which would violate man's freedom.

I will write more when I get the chance, sorry for the delay.

p0lar_bear

Edited January 15, 2004 by p0lar_bear

[p0lar_bear]

ICTHUS,

I had a chance to read a little of Aquinas. (Wow, you gotta have a lot of respect for Thomistic scholars...)

I think you are following him for the most part, but you need to make sure you include his understanding of contingency (First Part, Q. 22, A. 4). If you include this, then I think you'll have an orthodox stance.

Also, look at First Part, Q. 83, on the free-will of man.