Limited Atonement

[ICTHUS]

Muschi - I think you nailed it.

God knows who will choose him ... because he is outside of time.

That statement is way different than:

God chose certain people to be with him.

That statement negates free will.

But Azriel, by necessity of logic, if God is the origin of all things, then He must have fore-ordained who would choose Him.

[Azriel]

But Azriel, by necessity of logic, if God is the origin of all things, then He must have fore-ordained who would choose Him.

Sorry, I can't follow that logic.

To me, it would be a great cosmic joke. Why would any of us try? Free will would not exist. Hope would not be possible.

I guess I'm just not intellectual enough to follow this debate.

[phatcatholic]

azriel,

the three articles i included in an earlier post are very helpful. you may need to read them a couple of times.........but that's ok. i read them a couple times myself.

i think the hardest part w/ a discussion like this is the vocabulary. you have to know exactly what a person means by the words that they chose, and you have to make sure that you chose the words that reflect exactly what you mean.

for instance, icthus, others may profit from learning exactly what you mean by the word "for-ordained" and how it differs from words like:

--predestined

--predetermined

--for-knowledge

i hope this helps,

phatcatholic

[p0lar_bear]

Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination (i.e. God chose certain men to be with Him in heaven). Knowing something will or will not happen does not mean that one directly wills it.

But Azriel, by necessity of logic, if God is the origin of all things, then He must have fore-ordained who would choose Him.

NO. That is in no way a necessity of logic. God created man with an intended end, but His also created man with free will. He desires that all men would come to salvation, but, in His infinite wisdom, knows that some will choose otherwise. His foreknowledge in no way interferes with our free will.

Again, if God predestined (i.e. chose by an act of His will) that certain people would choose Him, He would necessarily have to chose by an act of His will that certain people would not. This would mean that there are two kinds of man, with two different ends chosen by the will of God.

Azriel is right, your definition cannot co-exist with free will.

[ICTHUS]

Okay, so this debate has progressed thus far:

We now agree, and have established that the atonement is limited in the sense that Christ died for all men, but that His atonement is limited in its efficacy, to only the Elect, so that the graces from His atonement will only be accepted by the Elect, but are/were readily available to the Reprobate.

Knowing something will or will not happen does not mean that one directly wills it.

This is true, except that we are dealing with God here. For this statement to be true, it is necessary for something (namely, the Divine Plan of Salvation) to either pre-exist before God, or to be uncreate. So, you will need to establish that the Divine Plan according to which all things unfold in the universe either pre-exists before God, or is uncreate with God.

My position is that the aforementioned Divine Plan has its origin within the infinite Intellect of God, and thus, God, in effect, positively predestines some souls to eternal Life, writing their names in the Book of Life, leaving the others to perish by their own sin. God predestines no one to Hell, He simply does not predestine them to Heaven.

Edited December 19, 2003 by ICTHUS

[Azriel]

azriel,

the three articles i included in an earlier post are very helpful. you may need to read them a couple of times.........but that's ok. i read them a couple times myself.

i think the hardest part w/ a discussion like this is the vocabulary. you have to know exactly what a person means by the words that they chose, and you have to make sure that you chose the words that reflect exactly what you mean.

for instance, icthus, others may profit from learning exactly what you mean by the word "for-ordained" and how it differs from words like:

--predestined

--predetermined

--for-knowledge

i hope this helps,

phatcatholic

Thank you. I'm in the process of reading those articles.

In the meantime, I can fully comprehend what polarbear is saying. What he is saying is making logical sense to me.

[ICTHUS]

Thank you. I'm in the process of reading those articles.

In the meantime, I can fully comprehend what polarbear is saying. What he is saying is making logical sense to me.

bump. Polar bear, please answer my objection.

As far as I can tell, my position is orthodox (from reading those articles).

I think I'm a Thomist in my soteriology..

[phatcatholic]

yea, i think ur orthodox too bro

[ICTHUS]

Is polar bear going to respond?

[Aloysius]

:wacko: woah! you just made my brain go insane. and that rymes!

so your saying that because of the nature of God, His knowledge of whether or not people will persevere to the end unto eternal life is integrated into His active will therefore because He knows they make it, He predestines them to make it. So He always knew who would make it to Heaven in the end, and because He has known that eternally throughout all of existence, It is in fact part of His nature to know this, and so He somehow predestines them who destined themselves and you really can't figure out which came first, but God's must've come first, but was it the free will or the predestination? it's like the chicken and the egg.

that's a mind-blowing concept, i like it. i'm not sure i got it across correctly, but nonetheless, it's very intrigueing.

So God has foreknowledge of who will attain eternal salvation. God therefore predestines those people. but God existed and predestined those people before they even had the chance to use their free will, but it still doesn't affect their free will because if they had not exercized their free will God would not have predestined them.

IT IS THE CHICKEN AND THE EGG :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

:cool:

[ICTHUS]

woah!  you just made my brain go insane.  and that rymes!

so your saying that because of the nature of God, His knowledge of whether or not people will persevere to the end unto eternal life is integrated into His active will therefore because He knows they make it, He predestines them to make it.  So He always knew who would make it to Heaven in the end, and because He has known that eternally throughout all of existence, It is in fact part of His nature to know this, and so He somehow predestines them who destined themselves and you really can't figure out which came first, but God's must've come first, but was it the free will or the predestination?  it's like the chicken and the egg.

that's a mind-blowing concept, i like it.  i'm not sure i got it across correctly, but nonetheless, it's very intrigueing.

So God has foreknowledge of who will attain eternal salvation.  God therefore predestines those people.  but God existed and predestined those people before they even had the chance to use their free will, but it still doesn't affect their free will because if they had not exercized their free will God would not have predestined them.

IT IS THE CHICKEN AND THE EGG :rolling:  :rolling:  :rolling:

That's (in much more wordy and less concise terms) pretty much what I was getting at, Aloysius.

Something like this:

Formulation of Divine Plan -> Foreknowledge of Elect -> Predestination of Elect -> Justification -> Glorification

This chicken/egg question has universal application...in Theology as well...

Edited December 25, 2003 by ICTHUS

[Circle_Master]

ahh arminian catholics. always an interesting twist

[ICTHUS]

ahh arminian catholics. always an interesting twist

I am not an Arminian. I am (as far as I can tell) a Thomist. I contend that God predestines men unconditionally. For, in formulating the Divine Plan, God must surely elect those whom He foreknows.

[Aloysius]

I am not an Arminian. I am (as far as I can tell) a Thomist. I contend that God predestines men unconditionally. For, in formulating the Divine Plan, God must surely elect those whom He foreknows.

remember to add that He foreknows and elects them because they used their God-given free will and persevered to the end working out their salvation in fear and trembling and i think we've formulated a good statement.

alright, so i'll formally write the statement, tell me if you agree.

God predestines men unconditionally. For, in formulating the Divine Plan, God must surely elect those whom He foreknows have used the free will given them to persevere to the end and choose to do good and resist evil.

[p0lar_bear]

ICTHUS,

Sorry, I haven't been on much lately...Christmas and family and stuff...

I do not think that your position is orthodox because it still removes free will by making the salvation of an individual person the result of God's specific choice rather than that of the person.

Even with God, foreknowledge is not the equivolent of predestination in the sense of an act of His will. Being outside of time (nifty thing that...), God knows from all eternity who will accept His gift of salvation. However, the person does not choose God because He knows it, He knows it because the person chooses God.

From all eternity, God's plan of salvation includes that man possesses free will and that man must freely choose to follow Him in order to gain salvation. Scripture tells us that God wills that all men be saved. However, He also wills that we have the freedom to choose God or 'not-God.' It is His will that we have that choice, it is His will that the choice of salvation, in a manner of speaking, lies with us. He offers it to everyone, knowing that some will choose to accept it and others to reject it. His knowledge in no way affects or infringes on man's free will. The very word "Elect" implies that the choice comes from outside of the person.

The choice to accept or reject God comes from the person; otherwise, it is not an "I act," but an "it happens" (using phrasing from JPII's philosophy).

Could you tell me where in the Summa Aquinas discusses this? If I read it, I may be better able to respond to you.