Limited Atonement

[ICTHUS]

In saying that the salvation merited by Christ's Passion only applies to the Elect, you are unavoidably including that God intended that it would not apply to those who are not "the Elect" and has thereby condemned people to Hell. You are also denying the free will that God chose to give to men. I just don't see anyway to avoid double-predestination or the denial of free will.

Either God create men with the intended end of suffering for eternity in Hell, but chose a few to be with Him , or He created men with the intended end of eternity in union with Him, but some choose to reject Him.

Either God wants a union of love with us, or He gives man no choice in whether His grace will be "efficacious."

You can't have it both ways.

Heaven will not be populated with potted plants, but with persons who chose to be there.

Well, sure, but the Elect are obviously the ones who used their free will (scripture leaves predestination and free will at ends, and does not attempt to reconcile them) to choose God...

[p0lar_bear]

If you mean by predestination that God chose certain people as the Elect, you necessarily negate free will. You simply cannot have them both; the two are mutually exclusive.

I'm sorry ICTHUS, there is no way around that.

If by predestination you mean that God, being outside of time, knows from all eternity who will and will not accept His offer of grace, then you are in line with Catholic thought.

[ICTHUS]

But surely God is the origin of all things, and thus, the foreknowledge of the Elect must have originated from His own Divine Intellect formulating the Plan of Salvation.

Besides, it is written:

Romans 8:28-30

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[10] who[11] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

If you deny predestination, you might as well throw the whole Bible out the window.

[ICTHUS]

If you mean by predestination that God chose certain people as the Elect, you necessarily negate free will. You simply cannot have them both; the two are mutually exclusive.

I'm sorry ICTHUS, there is no way around that.

If by predestination you mean that God, being outside of time, knows from all eternity who will and will not accept His offer of grace, then you are in line with Catholic thought.

The other thing is, we are saved by grace ALONE:

Thus, if Christ merely bought chances for us to be saved, and did not actually purchase salvation, then His blood is impotent!

So, this is my position:

Christ died for all men, so that all men might be without excuse on judgement day but His Passion will only be efficacious for the Elect (that is, though He died for all men, His Blood will only have its efficacy for the Elect).

God not only provided sufficent grace in the atonement, for all the Elect, but He provided Grace for those He foreknew (and, sometime before that, predestined) would not accept it!!

If the Catholic faith denies predestination altogether, I would like to see some evidence. If it denies the Calvinistic notion of Predestination, then that's fine.

Thus, Jesus' blood is not efficent in securing our salvation, it is superabundantly generous!!

Edited December 18, 2003 by ICTHUS

[hyperdulia again]

I'm gonna show this to someone smarter than me.

[ICTHUS]

I'm gonna show this to someone smarter than me.

Good idea, hyper!

On that note, let us examine how the Catechism treats of Predestination:

(my reference: 257, 484 , 600, 1007, 2012,2782,2823)

257 "O blessed light, O Trinity and first Unity!"93 God is eternal blessedness, undying life, unfading light. God is love: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God freely wills to communicate the glory of his blessed life. Such is the "plan of his loving kindness," conceived by the Father before the foundation of the world, in his beloved Son: "He destined us in love to be his sons" and "to be conformed to the image of his Son," through "the spirit of sonship."94 This plan is a "grace [which] was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began," stemming immediately from Trinitarian love.95 It unfolds in the work of creation, the whole history of salvation after the fall, and the missions of the Son and the Spirit, which are continued in the mission of the Church.

II. . . . Born of the Virgin Mary

487

What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.

Mary's predestination

488

"God sent forth his Son," but to prepare a body for him,125 he wanted the free cooperation of a creature. For this, from all eternity God chose for the mother of his Son a daughter of Israel, a young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee, "a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary":126

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.127

600 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.397 Citing a confession of faith that he himself had "received," St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures."398 In particular Jesus' redemptive death fulfills Isaiah's prophecy of the suffering Servant.399 Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God's suffering Servant.400 After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.401

604

By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins."408 God "shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."409

605

At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."410 He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.411 The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer."412

At this point, I will stop briefly: My beliefs concerning predestination fully acknowledge the above statement, in bold. I believe that Christ died for all men, without exception, but that not all men will be saved by His dying for them. Thusly, whilst Christ died for all men, His atonement is limited in its efficacy, to only the Elect.

2782 We can adore the Father because he has caused us to be reborn to his life by adopting us as his children in his only Son: by Baptism, he incorporates us into the Body of his Christ; through the anointing of his Spirit who flows from the head to the members, he makes us other "Christs."

God, indeed, who has predestined us to adoption as his sons, has conformed us to the glorious Body of Christ. So then you who have become sharers in Christ are appropriately called "Christs."34

The new man, reborn and restored to his God by grace , says first of all, "Father!" because he has now begun to be a son.35

(Me) Hmm, this is interesting! Here the Church quotes from St. Cyprian, who says we are PREDESTINED by God!!

2783 "He has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ . . . to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will."98 We ask insistently for this loving plan to be fully realized on earth as it is already in heaven.

Conclusion: Predestination (an orthodox conception of it, mind you) is a Catholic teaching. Anyone denying it is a heretic. :P

[ICTHUS]

i think he's using "reformed" as reference to the teachings of john calvin.

it is not an unorthodox catholic position to say that god has positively elected some to spend eternity with him.

WErd

[p0lar_bear]

OK, so...God created all men. God created man with an intended end. That end is eternal union with Him in heaven. There is only one "kind" of man, only one "kind" of human nature (i.e. there is not a sort of human nature intended for heaven and another sort of human nature intended for hell). If some men hae a different end, they would be, in fact, a different type of being. However, as it stands, there is only one human nature, and by that nature, we are intended for union with Him That means all men.

Love requires free will and a choice. The union that God desires with man is a union of love. Man must chose to love God in order to attain the union God desires with man. Ergo, God gives man the choice to chose God or not-God.

I submit two points as unavoidable truths:

1. There is (by God's choice in creation) only one human nature, which has as it's intended end eternal union with God.

2 For that union to be a union of love (as God desires), man must make an act of the free will to choose God.

In order for predestination (meaning God, by an act of His Will, only intends to save certain people) to be true, point number 1 would have to be false.

In order for irresitable grace (meaning that the grace God gives to the "elect" cannot be denied) to be true, point number 2 would have to be false.

Do you dispute that there is only one human nature?

That the intended end of that nature is union with God?

That the union is one of love?

That love requires a free act of the will?

[phatcatholic]

icthus,

maybe this line of thinking will help:

God's grace is potentially efficacious for all mankind.

or put another way:

God's grace, in and of itself and regardless of our acceptance or rejection of it, is effective enough to bring salvation to us all. however, wether his grace achieves its intended purpose depends on our reaction to it.

that said, read the following articles, 5 times each, and call me in the morning:

Catholic Predestination

Predestination, Salvation, and Damnation: Calvinism and Catholicism Contrasted

A Tiptoe Through TULIP

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[ICTHUS]

icthus,

maybe this line of thinking will help:

God's grace is potentially efficacious for all mankind.

or put another way:

God's grace, in and of itself and regardless of our acceptance or rejection of it, is effective enough to bring salvation to us all. however, wether his grace achieves its intended purpose depends on our reaction to it.

that said, read the following articles, 5 times each, and call me in the morning:

Catholic Predestination

Predestination, Salvation, and Damnation: Calvinism and Catholicism Contrasted

A Tiptoe Through TULIP

pax christi,

phatcatholic

There is no such thing as "effective enough" - it is either effective, or it isint. You are advocating semi-pelagianism.

Edited December 18, 2003 by ICTHUS

[ICTHUS]

OK, so...God created all men. God created man with an intended end. That end is eternal union with Him in heaven. There is only one "kind" of man, only one "kind" of human nature (i.e. there is not a sort of human nature intended for heaven and another sort of human nature intended for hell). If some men hae a different end, they would be, in fact, a different type of being. However, as it stands, there is only one human nature, and by that nature, we are intended for union with Him That means all men.

Love requires free will and a choice. The union that God desires with man is a union of love. Man must chose to love God in order to attain the union God desires with man. Ergo, God gives man the choice to chose God or not-God.

I submit two points as unavoidable truths:

1. There is (by God's choice in creation) only one human nature, which has as it's intended end eternal union with God.

2 For that union to be a union of love (as God desires), man must make an act of the free will to choose God.

In order for predestination (meaning God, by an act of His Will, only intends to save certain people) to be true, point number 1 would have to be false.

In order for irresitable grace (meaning that the grace God gives to the "elect" cannot be denied) to be true, point number 2 would have to be false.

Do you dispute that there is only one human nature?

That the intended end of that nature is union with God?

That the union is one of love?

That love requires a free act of the will?

OK, so...God created all men. God created man with an intended end. That end is eternal union with Him in heaven. There is only one "kind" of man, only one "kind" of human nature (i.e. there is not a sort of human nature intended for heaven and another sort of human nature intended for hell). If some men hae a different end, they would be, in fact, a different type of being. However, as it stands, there is only one human nature, and by that nature, we are intended for union with Him That means all men.

Agreed.

Love requires free will and a choice. The union that God desires with man is a union of love. Man must chose to love God in order to attain the union God desires with man. Ergo, God gives man the choice to chose God or not-God.

Agreed. I do not see, though, how this choice cannot be foreknown from all eternity, and therefore predestined by God.

1. There is (by God's choice in creation) only one human nature, which has as it's intended end eternal union with God.

Agreed.

2. For that union to be a union of love (as God desires), man must make an act of the free will to choose God.

Agreed, with the above reservation.

In order for predestination (meaning God, by an act of His Will, only intends to save certain people) to be true, point number 1 would have to be false.

But predestination is not false, for Scripture plainly teaches it! (Romans 8:28-30, just to name one verse). Now, having said that, God foreknows our decision to accept or reject His grace, from all eternity, and predestines us to Eternal Happiness or Eternal Reprobation, accordingly. This does not negate our free will, it only says that our use of our free will is within Gods predestinative plan!!

In order for irresitable grace (meaning that the grace God gives to the "elect" cannot be denied) to be true, point number 2 would have to be false.

I am not advocating irresistible grace, I am advocating that those whom God has Elected to spend eternity with Him will infallibly be saved.

God's grace, in and of itself and regardless of our acceptance or rejection of it, is effective enough to bring salvation to us all. however, wether his grace achieves its intended purpose depends on our reaction to it.

Granted, however, as said above,our acceptance or rejection is part of Gods foreknowledge and predestination thereof.

[phatcatholic]

icthus,

i would have to disagree w/ ur perception of my last post. i think maybe you are reading too much into what i wrote. using correct vocabulary is very important in a discussion like this, so i may not have chosen my words wisely.

allow me to articulate it this way:

God's grace is sufficient for all man kind, but it is only ultimately efficacious for the elect.

believe it or not, that is an orthodox statement. this is all presented in the third article that i provided in my last post. all three are very informative and very helpful in explaining this convoluted topic.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[Muschi]

J'ai une question..........

Ok all, I have a question. WHO are the Elect?

Are they those who God foreknew would choose him?

or

Are they those who GOD CHOSE before time?

eh? I'm a little "fuzzy" here in this area.

Thanks! - God bless! - Muschi

[Azriel]

J'ai une question..........

Ok all, I have a question. WHO are the Elect?

Are they those who God foreknew would choose him?

or

Are they those who GOD CHOSE before time?

eh? I'm a little "fuzzy" here in this area.

Thanks! - God bless! - Muschi

Muschi - I think you nailed it.

God knows who will choose him ... because he is outside of time.

That statement is way different than:

God chose certain people to be with him.

That statement negates free will.

[ICTHUS]

God's grace is sufficient for all man kind, but it is only ultimately efficacious for the elect.

Now, THIS is a statement that I agree with!!

Now, to explain it the way a Calvinist would understand: The atonement is only limited in the sense that it will only be efficacious for the Elect. *edit* the graces that the atonement merited, however, are applicable and available to all Mankind who ever, or would ever, live. Thus, the atonement can be said to be SUPERABUNDANTLY generous, in providing for the salvation of the Elect. It more than provided for their salvation, it provided for the possibility of salvation of even those who were not saved, so that they are without excuse!

Edited December 19, 2003 by ICTHUS