ICTHUS Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 One Reformed doctrine, (actually, its one of the points of 5 Point Calvinism) that seems to make sense to me is Limited Atonement. The doctrine is explained like this: Christ's death was never intended to atone for the sins of all men, but only for those of the Elect. (Me) Now, I believe this to be contrary to the Church's soteriological teachings. However, I believe there is an orthodox position somewhere along these lines that states that while Christ's death is sufficent to atone for the sins of all men, it will only be efficacious for the Elect - that is - Christ died for all men, but not all men will be saved - thusly, His Blood was a super-abundant propitiation for sin - not only did He die for the Elect, but He shed His Blood even for those whose names were not written in the Book of Life and who would be damned by their own sin. Thus, His atonement was sufficent for all, but will only be efficacious for the Elect. Does this sound orthodox to you guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozencell Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Seems not only orthodox but only common sense to me. Of course there will be those who don't "make it". It ahs nothing to do with Christ, but only free will. Christ did die for everyone, but not everyone is going to accept this gift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted December 18, 2003 Author Share Posted December 18, 2003 Seems not only orthodox but only common sense to me. Of course there will be those who don't "make it". It ahs nothing to do with Christ, but only free will. Christ did die for everyone, but not everyone is going to accept this gift. No, you're missing my point. Christ's atonement was sufficent for everyone, but ONLY FOR THE ELECT will it be efficacious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozencell Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 No, you're missing my point. Christ's atonement was sufficent for everyone, but ONLY FOR THE ELECT will it be efficacious... I guess I am. Please explain without such big words.... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted December 18, 2003 Author Share Posted December 18, 2003 I guess I am. Please explain without such big words.... :D The atonement was enough to bring everyone to salvation, but it will only be effective (efficacious, or having efficacy) in bringing about the salvation of the Elect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozencell Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 The atonement was enough to bring everyone to salvation, but it will only be effective (efficacious, or having efficacy) in bringing about the salvation of the Elect. So who's the "Elect"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted December 18, 2003 Author Share Posted December 18, 2003 So who's the "Elect"? Those whom God has unconditionally chosen (or "elected") from the beginning of time, to be saved, by writing their names in the Book of Life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Those whom God has unconditionally chosen (or "elected") from the beginning of time, to be saved, by writing their names in the Book of Life. If that is true, then it negates free will. And says that no matter what you do, you are predestined to Salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozencell Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 If that is true, then it negates free will. And says that no matter what you do, you are predestined to Salvation. Big ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Those whom God has unconditionally chosen (or "elected") from the beginning of time, to be saved, by writing their names in the Book of Life. Because God is outside of time and all things are all present to Him at all time, he already knows if we are in heaven or hell for eternity. We have all been given free will inside of time to make our choices, and have a past, present, and future. God does not . God simply is. So yes God wrote our names in the list, and yes we made the choices that lead to that of or the other place. Both are correct. Like the chicken and the egg. Which came First? God knows and He si not telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Icthus, to help me understand where your coming from, when you say reformed document, do you mean from the times of reformation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozencell Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 And my head explodes!!!! :wacko: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 i think he's using "reformed" as reference to the teachings of john calvin. it is not an unorthodox catholic position to say that god has positively elected some to spend eternity with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 In saying that the salvation merited by Christ's Passion only applies to the Elect, you are unavoidably including that God intended that it would not apply to those who are not "the Elect" and has thereby condemned people to Hell. You are also denying the free will that God chose to give to men. I just don't see anyway to avoid double-predestination or the denial of free will. Either God create men with the intended end of suffering for eternity in Hell, but chose a few to be with Him , or He created men with the intended end of eternity in union with Him, but some choose to reject Him. Either God wants a union of love with us, or He gives man no choice in whether His grace will be "efficacious." You can't have it both ways. Heaven will not be populated with potted plants, but with persons who chose to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now