Laurentina1975 Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Mar 1 2006, 10:20 AM'] [right][snapback]900723[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Happy Feast Day. I'm stayin out of this convo.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Ash Wednesday is one of my favourite days of the year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 1 2006, 10:21 AM']From [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=2314"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=2314[/url] If we are right with God, we have no reason to be depressed. If we are, then we need to change our point of view. All the psychological help someone needs can be found in the Scriptures and Catholic teaching. If someone can study and follow them, then they should be happy. If not, then they are looking at things wrong and should change their point of view. I do no believe the theory of biological depression. Emotions can produce chemicals in our brains. When we artifically introduce chemicals into someone's brian it can influence emotion, but that person can still have control of their emotions... therefore "biological depression" is false. [right][snapback]900683[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 1 2006, 11:03 AM']People have the power and freewill to change their point of view. [right][snapback]900708[/snapback][/right] [/quote] This sounds like some sort of twisted mix between Benny Hinn evangelicalism and "the power of positive thinking. I urge you to consider a few things... - Why did you post this thread to begin with? What kind of point were you really trying to make? It seems like you're trying to pick on people who are suffering, and that is not cool. Don't be a bully around here. This Lent is a good time for us ALL to abstain from judging others and practice humility. Thank God that you have not had to deal with chronic depression, and pray for those who do, please. - Think about Jesus' words, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" When I was suicidally depressed, I felt that way. I felt that I'd been forsaken. I KNEW intellectually that God never forsakes His children and that He is all-good and loving, but I also felt completely abandoned. Jesus understands this. He's been there. Imagine the anguish he must have felt internally, knowing that in order to pay the price for our sins, he had to suffer the wrath of His Father. I KNEW intellectually that God loved me, that He would never abandon me. But that doesn't mean that it can't HURT like you wouldn't believe. It's OK if you haven't been there. But I know Jesus has, and He understands me. [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Mar 1 2006, 10:52 AM']Depression stems from something, an event, a memory, an emotion...it doesn't appear from no where. Depression occurs because of how we deal with whatever that root cause is. Turning to God may not remove the problem, but we can find joy in suffering...which is what we are all called to do. No one is called to be sad because of life. God made us good, and in order to get ourselves out of depression, we need to learn how to see that. That's not saying some people suffer from a disease of depression, but they, too, have the resources at their hands to free themselves of this burden through prayer, sacrifice, and humility. I think our society today needs immediate response to everything, and doctors have a name for everything. In my opinion (and its a humble opinion cause I'm not scientist), many who are diagnosed with clinical depression do not actually have the disease. I feel the same way about ADHD in children. Teachers and parents are so quick to put a name to something and put a child on medicine, when maybe the child just needs some more love or attention. Again, I know ADHD exists, but I think that we get so caught up in it, that now every kid who doesn't sit still has it! I see clinical depression in the same way. Anyone who is feeling down for a few days, goes to their doctor, gets put on anti-depressants, and suddenly they have this disease. I just don't buy it. For those who suffer from depression, stay in prayer, work on humility (as we all should...me, too!), and read St. Francis deSales cause he's the man! [right][snapback]900700[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree with this.. Depression can be caused by many different things... biology, grief, sexual abuse, family problems, etc. As many people on this board have said already, the human condition is a very complex thing and the only One who can claim to understand the depths of man is Our Father in Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 [quote name='Norseman82' date='Mar 1 2006, 08:54 AM']Being unhappy is our own fault? I certainly would not tell that to a battered wife or abused kid or a rape victim...... [right][snapback]900618[/snapback][/right] [/quote] AMEN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 1 2006, 11:10 AM']You are splitting hairs Ironmonk. Anything that has to do with the human condition may in some way or another fall into either faith or morals. Abortion arguments deal a great deal with biology and anatomy, but does that mean it is not a moral question? The effects of drugs deals with biology and anatomy, may the Church not speak on the morality of drugs because it deals with biology? [/quote] the above is illogical. Abortion has nothing to do with biology, abortion has to do with the act of ending an innocent life. Drugs have to deal with drunkeness or breaking the law. Biological theories of depression have nothing to do with faith or morals. [quote]And so you admit that psychological help is often a viable option (and in some cases the only?)[/quote] Not psychological help in the sense of the APA. [quote]This only begs the question we are discussing. Is it merely a point of view or are the other factors that may come into play? That it is only a point of view has yet to be proven [right][snapback]900714[/snapback][/right][/quote] Are you saying that we do not have freewill? It is a point of view. People can control the way think of things and look at things. We have the freewill to look at things from a different perspective. If someone is depressed and they think that they are right with God, then their point of view is the wrong point of view to have. "Food for thought" - Dwell on it and think about it. There is no other way to say it.... Two reasons for depression - 1) Not right with God or 2) Wrong point of view. But then we could then say if we have a negative outlook that could be a "not right with God" scenario. A non-joyful Christian has a wrong outlook or not right with God. It could be a lack of faith, it could be a lack of knowledge, it could be a lack of wisdom. It could be many things, but they have the power to correct their way of thinking if they want to. It takes a conscious effort to do so. [quote][b]St. Josemaria Escriva: The Way[/b] You are unhappy? — Think: there must be an obstacle between God and me. You will seldom be wrong. -662 True virtue is not sad or disagreeable, but pleasantly cheerful. -657 If things go well, let us rejoice, blessing God who makes them prosper. And if they go badly? Let us rejoice, blessing God who allows us to share in the sweetness of his Cross. -658 The cheerfulness you should have is not the kind we might call physiological good spirits — the happiness of a healthy animal. You must seek something more: the supernatural happiness that comes from the abandonment of everything and the abandonment of yourself into the loving arms of our Father-God. -659 Don't be gloomy. Let your outlook be more 'ours', — more christian. -664 Long face, rough manner, ridiculous appearance, unfriendly attitude. Is that how you hope to inspire others to follow Christ? -661 [/quote] God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 [quote name='Azriel' date='Mar 1 2006, 11:27 AM']Suffer from clinical depression and then get back to me on whether or not you can just "change your outlook". Tell a person who is bi-polar, manic, or suffers from Anxiety to JUST GET OVER IT. Tell my best friend who lost her son, her mother, and had a husband who walked out on her ... who prays her Rosary faithfully, who still counts her blessings, and who does her best to walk with God to just get over her Panic Attacks. I'm out of this thread before I say something I'm going to regret. [right][snapback]900729[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It seems that you always try to add to context and take things extremely out of context. The topic is unhappiness and depression... not bipolar disorders. About people dying... Yes, it's that simple... we move on because of God. We do get over it. People who die and go to Heaven are not dead and there is no reason to remain in depression about it... This shows we have a wrong outlook and our faith is not where it needs to be. This is not something that is really debatable... you can argue all you want... the scriptures and saints are clear that we should be joyful. If we are not joyful then we need to change to be joyful. Please pay attention and give it some thought. "Food for thought" "Food for thought" It helps to apply deep thought to things that are "food for thought". Read the Scriptures and the saints and dwell on "food for thought". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 As someone with a family that has many members that suffer from major despressive disorder, I must say I'm entirely insulted that you think it has nothing to do with our biological makeup. Certianly there could be problems with God, but that isn't the point and quite often isn't the root. And I disagree with the Saint, or at least your application of his writings. I don't see happiness as a virtue. I see joy, hope, and love as virtues, as well do I see longsuffering as a virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I'd be interested in Phatcatholics view on this, since he is the expert and has the degree necessary to draw sound conclusions on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 1 2006, 04:55 PM']As someone with a family that has many members that suffer from major despressive disorder, I must say I'm entirely insulted that you think it has nothing to do with our biological makeup. Certianly there could be problems with God, but that isn't the point and quite often isn't the root. And I disagree with the Saint, or at least your application of his writings. I don't see happiness as a virtue. I see joy, hope, and love as virtues, as well do I see longsuffering as a virtue. [right][snapback]900965[/snapback][/right] [/quote] We are not to be depressed about suffering. Suffering brings us closer to God, coming closer to God brings us joy. There is no proof that depression is biological. It is a theory. Symtoms are treated with chemicals - problems are not solved. Chemicals can be produced in our brains depending on our emotions. Those same chemicals which are produced can intensify the emotion. If someone gives us certain drugs they can enduce certain emotions... None of this is proof that depression is a biological problem... it is ONLY a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 The APA is a joke... that is why I stopped seeking my degree in psychology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 [quote]You are unhappy? — Think: there must be an obstacle between God and me. You will seldom be wrong. -662[/quote] Even St. Josemaria said SELDOM, though. Not "never." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 It may not always be as easy as 'making a choice' to be happy. If chemicals are out of balance in your body, a simple choice may not be enough. And phatcatholic doesn't have a degree in psychology. I believe the Q&A thread says he has a Masters in clinical and human counsoling. I'm going to send him a PM asking his thoughts on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 1 2006, 04:53 PM']About people dying... Yes, it's that simple... we move on because of God. We do get over it. People who die and go to Heaven are not dead and there is no reason to remain in depression about it... This shows we have a wrong outlook and our faith is not where it needs to be. [right][snapback]900963[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Here's some food for thought for you... have you ever lost someone? Have you ever watched someone you loved die? Ever? Have you ever lost someone you truly loved? Someone you've known your entire life? It is PAINFUL, dreadfully so. To say "just get over it" is EXTREMELY insensitive because it makes light of something that is indeed very serious. I lost someone I loved very much and I will tell you that it is not something you just "get over." It takes lots of time + prayer to even get back to normal. Ever since I lost the man I loved I will never be the same, and that takes a lot of getting used to. [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 1 2006, 05:00 PM']There is no proof that depression is biological. It is a theory. Symtoms are treated with chemicals - problems are not solved. Chemicals can be produced in our brains depending on our emotions. Those same chemicals which are produced can intensify the emotion. If someone gives us certain drugs they can enduce certain emotions... None of this is proof that depression is a biological problem... it is ONLY a theory. [right][snapback]900970[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I think your theory that emotions cause chemicals is HIGHLY dubious. Chemicals lead to emotions, not vice versa. And even if you don't agree with the theory that depression can be a medical problem, the Magesterium does, so you have to respect what the Church has said about this issue. [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 1 2006, 05:01 PM']The APA is a joke... that is why I stopped seeking my degree in psychology. [right][snapback]900971[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The APA is a secular institution. Of course it's going to have problems. That doesn't mean good Catholics cannot study psychology from the perspective of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 What is the definition of psychology? What are you learning exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 1 2006, 02:53 PM']It seems that you always try to add to context and take things extremely out of context. The topic is unhappiness and depression... not bipolar disorders. About people dying... Yes, it's that simple... we move on because of God. We do get over it. People who die and go to Heaven are not dead and there is no reason to remain in depression about it... This shows we have a wrong outlook and our faith is not where it needs to be. This is not something that is really debatable... you can argue all you want... the scriptures and saints are clear that we should be joyful. If we are not joyful then we need to change to be joyful. Please pay attention and give it some thought. "Food for thought" "Food for thought" It helps to apply deep thought to things that are "food for thought". Read the Scriptures and the saints and dwell on "food for thought". [right][snapback]900963[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It always seems that you find exactly my post to comment on ... when others have echoed me. Bi Polar, Manic, and Anxiety all seem to come with the side effect of depression. But, since you called me out on it, let's just talk Depression. Clinical Depression. I have clinical depression. When it started I had no idea what was going on. I thought I could just force myself to be happy. If I just was closer to God, it would go away. If I prayed harder, If I did more, if if if.....Guess what? I have read my bible, I have read the Saints Guide to When Life Hurts. I have beat myself up because I felt that my depression was somehow because I was not in the "right" place with God. I've said Rosary after Rosary, and forced myself to look in the mirror and smile. I have tried to "just get over it". It didn't work. I cried a river of tears believing that if I only had ENOUGH faith - I could get over it. What worked was recognizing that it wasn't me that caused the depression. That God loved me anyway. I realized that I was being brought closer to God because of my suffering....but that God didn't wish this on me. Anyone who has suffered from clinical depression doesn't ask for it, nor do they want to be there. It is a black pit of despair, and hopelessness. The only hope I clung too is that God wouldn't abandon me...and that's even when I doubted he was even there!! What did help? Finding a Christian Counselor who helped me to realize that depression needs to be treated the same way as other diseases. If you have diabetes, you go get help. If you are depressed, you seek treatment. It doesn't make me bad, wrong, stupid, worthless, and above all else it doesn't mean that I'm not walking with God. Or offending him by being depressed. As far as your death comment, and not remaining depressed about. No, you don't remain depressed about it. But I've watched my best friend Grieve over her 6 1/2 year old son. She rejoices that he is in heaven, and sees the blessing that was his life - but she wouldn't be human if she didn't grieve. Its a process - and part of her process is that she suffers depression and panic. And its not because of a lack of faith. Its because her child was taken from her. That is a pain that doesn't leave, faith or no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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