Pope St Clement 1 Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 For some time now I have thought of purgatory as inextricably part of our purification by Christ's Cross. If, at the end of our lives, we have prevented the Cross from fully purifying us then its purifying work must continue in the afterlife. This afterlife work of the Cross we refer to as Purgatory. Therefore I see the real question on this Potestant-Catholic issue as being about how the Cross completely purifies us - instantly at the time of conversion or over some duration? Are there any corrections that I need to make to the above? Finally, Romans 4:25 says that Christ was raised for our justification so is it more correct to speak of the work of the Cross and Resurrection of Christ? Thanks guys and God bless. N.B. I have not been able to read all threads so if this post belongs in another thread then I apologise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Purgatory is for the removal of the temporal punishment that comes from our sins. Jesus' death on the cross was so that we could be forgiven our sins and thus escape eternal punishment. It was NOT so that we wouldn't have to undergo temporal punishment for them, whether in this life or in purgatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope St Clement 1 Posted December 17, 2003 Author Share Posted December 17, 2003 Purgatory is for the removal of the temporal punishment that comes from our sins. Jesus' death on the cross was so that we could be forgiven our sins and thus escape eternal punishment. It was NOT so that we wouldn't have to undergo temporal punishment for them, whether in this life or in purgatory. I've always known that Jesus' death on the Cross was so that we could be given from our sins and , most of my life, I've realised that we still need to undergo temporal punishment for our sins. I guess what I'm asking is is that temporal punishment a loving purification by the Cross? Is the cross not only the means by which we are forgiven but also the means by which we are purified (by each of us undergoing temporal punishment and suffering)? Thanks and God bless you Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 I've always known that Jesus' death on the Cross was so that we could be given from our sins and , most of my life, I've realised that we still need to undergo temporal punishment for our sins. I guess what I'm asking is is that temporal punishment a loving purification by the Cross? Is the cross not only the means by which we are forgiven but also the means by which we are purified (by each of us undergoing temporal punishment and suffering)? Thanks and God bless you Dave Yes, I think that's right. But I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Is the cross not only the means by which we are forgiven but also the means by which we are purified (by each of us undergoing temporal punishment and suffering)? tho i have no sources, i would agree w/ this statement as well. the cross overcame sin in all its forms and in every single way in which it can keep us from heaven. it would therefore not only wipe away the presence of sin (foregiveness) but its effects as well (purging). i hope this helps. maybe someone else can give a more theological response. pax christi, phatcatholic ps: i am reminded of a song we sing in church: "Lord by your cross and resurrection, you have set us free. You are the savior of the world." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 The CCC# 1502 and 1505: The man of the Old Testament lives his sickness in the presence of God. It is before God that he laments his illness, and it is of God, Master of life and death, that he implores healing. 99 Illness becomes a way to conversion; God's forgiveness initiates the healing. 100 It is the experience of Israel that illness is mysteriously linked to sin and evil, and that faithfulness to God according to his law restores life: "For I am the Lord, your healer." 101 The prophet intuits that suffering can also have a redemptive meaning for the sins of others. 102 Finally Isaiah announces that God will usher in a time for Zion when he will pardon every offense and heal every illness. 103 Moved by so much suffering Christ not only allows himself to be touched by the sick, but he makes their miseries his own: "He took our infirmities and bore our diseases." 112 But he did not heal all the sick. His healings were signs of the coming of the Kingdom of God. They announced a more radical healing: the victory over sin and death through his Passover. On the cross Christ took upon himself the whole weight of evil and took away the "sin of the world," 113 of which illness is only a consequence. By his passion and death on the cross Christ has given a new meaning to suffering: it can henceforth configure us to him and unite us with his redemptive Passion. In this sense then our sufferings become redemptive. In fact, the issue you are bringing up is what surrounds the idea of redemptive suffering, whereby we are purified and made holy by the sufferings we endure and offer to God. As St. Paul says, "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church." This is what surrounds the mystery of suffering, our sharing in the sufferings of Christ. It always reminds me of something I read, from a Saint, or somewhere, "The closer we get to the sun, the more we feel the heat." In other words, the closer we come to God the more we feel the pain. Christ laid out the way to salvation, He demonstrated to us how we are to be united with Him: through suffering, for when we suffer, we mysteriously share in the sufferings of Christ, so long as it is properly offered. I think it was St. Terea of either the Little Flower or Avila that said suffering is a kiss from Christ. There is a mystery to suffering because it purifies us and draws us closer to God. How, why, or what for is not important, what is important is that it is the way that has been shown to us. Hope that helps. God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Father Groeshel? on EWTN has a program on redemptive suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope St Clement 1 Posted December 22, 2003 Author Share Posted December 22, 2003 Thanks Guys. I'll be studying all replies a few times. Peace and blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope St Clement 1 Posted December 22, 2003 Author Share Posted December 22, 2003 I forgot to mention that I'll be going away for a week so any reply might be delayed. Peace and blessings once again. Have an amesome Christmas!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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