Ora et Labora Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Is it corrupt? I have always wanted to go back to Europe, but I here it is almost worst then America now...I find that hard to believe. Kristina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Less than most, and it varies. Northern Europe is the least corrupt place on earth, the south much less so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Yes, it's corrupt. So is America. And Canada. And Africa. And the Middle East... I agree with Random Proddy. I find it's a mixed bag of marbles in reality. I'm an American going to school here in Europe (U.K.) and may end up staying in nothern Europe for an indefinite period of time. And I'm fine with that. Sure, Europe has her problems. But there are pockets of fighters and believers here -- to throw in the towel or put one's head in the sand doesn't seem to be the right thing to do. Certainly the Pope hasn't given up on Europe, so why should we? I'll also add that Poland rocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 [quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Feb 23 2006, 05:51 PM']Is it corrupt? I have always wanted to go back to Europe, but I here it is almost worst then America now...I find that hard to believe. Kristina [right][snapback]895961[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Hell yes, Europe is corrupt! I find it interesting that many Catholics seem to see Europe as almost some unspoiled land of innocence, as opposed to "corrupt" America. Europe seems to be for the most part a dying civilization. Much of Europe has been plagued by serious decadence and decay ever since WWI. Today, most of Europe suffers from plummeting native birthrates (population growth is negative in most countries, except those with high immigration), a rapidly increasing Muslim immigrant population, rampant secularism and loss of religious faith, and a general lack of any sense of purpose or direction. No, things are not all rosy here in the U.S.A., but I still think that there is more hope for America than for Europe, which is on the fast track to suicide. (Though Poland seems to be an exception). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 [quote name='RandomProddy' date='Feb 23 2006, 05:56 PM']Less than most, and it varies. Northern Europe is the least corrupt place on earth, the south much less so. [right][snapback]895967[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Not sure what you mean by "least corrupt," but Northern Europe would certainly qualify as one of the most godless places on earth. Look at what's going on in the Netherlands, Scandinavian countries, Germany . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 24 2006, 02:13 AM']Not sure what you mean by "least corrupt," but Northern Europe would certainly qualify as one of the most godless places on earth. Look at what's going on in the Netherlands, Scandinavian countries, Germany . . . [right][snapback]896009[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [url="http://ww1.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005.sources.en.html"]http://ww1.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005.sources.en.html[/url] You can't really compare godlessness with corruption that easily. Edited February 24, 2006 by RandomProddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 [quote name='RandomProddy' date='Feb 23 2006, 08:16 PM'][url="http://ww1.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005.sources.en.html"]http://ww1.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005.sources.en.html[/url] You can't really compare godlessness with corruption that easily. [right][snapback]896013[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I think it might be that some posters are thinking moral corruption and others are thinking political/business corruption. Kristina, which did you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 [quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Feb 23 2006, 07:37 PM']I think it might be that some posters are thinking moral corruption and others are thinking political/business corruption. Kristina, which did you mean? [right][snapback]896048[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I meant moral corruption... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 [quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 23 2006, 06:55 PM'] a rapidly increasing Muslim immigrant population, rampant secularism and loss of religious faith, and a general lack of any sense of purpose or direction. [right][snapback]895999[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I have heard this before...it seems unbelievable. Because I think you are right...some people (like me) think of Europe as a sort of getaway from all the horrible things taht go on in America... Heaven seems to be the only place now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 we should all become Aussies or Kiwis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 24 2006, 10:26 AM']we should all become Aussies or Kiwis. [right][snapback]896626[/snapback][/right] [/quote] ya...i totally agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 [quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Feb 24 2006, 06:15 PM']ya...i totally agree with you. [right][snapback]896695[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I dont I just reckon that if you should upsticks and move to Europe and make a go of helping us overcome the disasterous trends prevalent in our society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stbernardLT Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I heard that Europe itself plans on moving very soon. It thinks that might be the only way to keep avoiding terrorists. Sorry if I seem bi-polar its just because I'm a penguin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadreSantiago Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 (edited) The Los Angeles Times October 1, 2005 The dark side of faith By ROSA BROOKS IT'S OFFICIAL: Too much religion may be a dangerous thing. This is the implication of a study reported in the current issue of the Journal of Religion and Society, a publication of Creighton University's Center for the Study of Religion [a Roman Catholic, Jesuit, university in Omaha]. The study, by evolutionary scientist Gregory S. Paul, looks at the correlation between levels of "popular religiosity" and various "quantifiable societal health" indicators in 18 prosperous democracies, including the United States. Paul ranked societies based on the percentage of their population expressing absolute belief in God, the frequency of prayer reported by their citizens and their frequency of attendance at religious services. He then correlated this with data on rates of homicide, sexually transmitted disease, teen pregnancy, abortion and child mortality. He found that the most religious democracies exhibited substantially higher degrees of social dysfunction than societies with larger percentages of atheists and agnostics. Of the nations studied, the U.S. - which has by far the largest percentage of people who take the Bible literally and express absolute belief in God (and the lowest percentage of atheists and agnostics) - also has by far the highest levels of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases. This conclusion will come as no surprise to those who have long gnashed their teeth in frustration while listening to right-wing evangelical claims that secular liberals are weak on "values." Paul's study confirms globally what is already evident in the U.S.: When it comes to "values," if you look at facts rather than mere rhetoric, the substantially more secular blue states routinely leave the Bible Belt red states in the dust. [b]Murder rates? Six of the seven states with the highest 2003 homicide rates were "red" in the 2004 elections (Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, South Carolina), while the deep blue Northeastern states had murder rates well below the national average. Infant mortality rates? Highest in the South and Southwest; lowest in New England. Divorce rates? Marriages break up far more in red states than in blue. Teen pregnancy rates? The same.[/b] Of course, the red/blue divide is only an imperfect proxy for levels of religiosity. And while Paul's study found that the correlation between high degrees of religiosity and high degrees of social dysfunction appears robust, it could be that high levels of social dysfunction fuel religiosity, rather than the other way around. Although correlation is not causation, Paul's study offers much food for thought. At a minimum, his findings suggest that contrary to popular belief, lack of religiosity does societies no particular harm. This should offer ammunition to those who maintain that religious belief is a purely private matter and that government should remain neutral, not only among religions but also between religion and lack of religion. It should also give a boost to critics of "faith-based" social services and abstinence-only disease and pregnancy prevention programs. We shouldn't shy away from the possibility that too much religiosity may be socially dangerous. Secular, rationalist approaches to problem-solving emphasize uncertainty, evidence and perpetual reevaluation. Religious faith is inherently nonrational. This in itself does not make religion worthless or dangerous. All humans hold nonrational beliefs, and some of these may have both individual and societal value. But historically, societies run into trouble when powerful religions become imperial and absolutist. The claim that religion can have a dark side should not be news. Does anyone doubt that Islamic extremism is linked to the recent rise in international terrorism? And since the history of Christianity is every bit as blood-drenched as the history of Islam, why should we doubt that extremist forms of modern American Christianity have their own pernicious and measurable effects on national health and well-being? Arguably, Paul's study invites us to conclude that the most serious threat humanity faces today is religious extremism: nonrational, absolutist belief systems that refuse to tolerate difference and dissent. My prediction is that right-wing evangelicals will do their best to discredit Paul's substantive findings. But when they fail, they'll just shrug: So what if highly religious societies have more murders and disease than less religious societies? Remember the trials of Job? God likes to test the faithful. To the truly nonrational, even evidence that on its face undermines your beliefs can be twisted to support them. Absolutism means never having to say you're sorry. And that, of course, is what makes it so very dangerous. Edited February 24, 2006 by PadreSantiago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 [color=330000]There are 3 European exchange students at my school right now who are supposedly catholic. But they have told me how different the two cultures are. They don’t go to mass on a regular basis, most of them have a very washed down sense of religion, and barely believes the most basic truths of the catholic faith. But they say they are catholic. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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