Problem of Evil

[God Conquers]

No.

Sin must be a choice.

World #2 can't exist as you've described. Sin is a choice against God's will.

Free will means we can choose against God... sin.

In order to have free will we must be able to sin.

MARY did not sin, yet was created exactly the same as Adam and Eve, who did... and flawed our spiritual character making it easier for us to sin.

You can't have a free world with no sin. Someone will sin.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world and through sin, death, thus death came to all inasmuch as all have sinned."

If our will was God's will, then our will is not free.

[quote]there will be many free creatures, yet they will not sin (think Mary) and there will be no evil.[/quote]

Why won't they sin? It doesn't make sense. Mary was extraordinary... not wholly different, just an INCREDIBLE example of love of God. If there are MANY free creatures, many will choose against God.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Feb 23 2006, 09:43 PM']In order to have free will we must be able to sin.
[/quote]We will be perfectly free in heaven, but will we be able to sin?

Sin is an abuse of our freedom.

[God Conquers]

In heaven, the choice has already been made. It is a free one, but it is enacted during our life on earth.

Such a choice must be made and must be possible.

Hell is a free choice as well.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Feb 23 2006, 10:31 PM']In heaven, the choice has already been made. It is a free one, but it is enacted during our life on earth.

Such a choice must be made and must be possible.

Hell is a free choice as well.
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I just wanted to make sure that we understood that the existence of free will does not depend on the possibility of a choice at that present moment.

I was clarifying that we do not have to be able to sin(at that moment) to be free, but we must be able to choose God freely.

[God Conquers]

agreed.

That still makes world 2 impossible though.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Feb 23 2006, 10:52 PM']agreed.

That still makes world 2 impossible though.
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Agreed.

[Snarf]

As for free will in heaven, I had a lapsed Protestant friend (now she believes in God, attends services, but is pretty unreligous in her views) tell me that she has a hard time accepting heaven because personal interests will always collide, even if they're well-intended enough to merit a place in heaven. My problem with that view is that it judges a mustard plant from its seed. I think we will transcend in heaven our earthly demeanors not to the point that free will is abolished, but that it will be superfluous. In Revelations, where John sees all the elect as being robed in white, I personally interpret that as meaning that all souls in heaven will essentially be the same, except for the perfectified body. We will all have our somatically unique sentience, but I think that our intelligence, judgment, and pleasures will be the same. I can tolerate having grown up a Hoosier with my personal likes, dislikes, rational abilities, and dispositions, but I can't really make sense of the idea of taking them beyond the corporeal world.

I just don't see baseball versus football arguments as being possible in heaven.

And yes, Mary was simply born without Original Sin, but she was fully capable of denegrating that Grace by freely choosing personal sin. Lucky for us, she didn't.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Feb 23 2006, 11:28 PM']As for free will in heaven, I had a lapsed Protestant friend (now she believes in God, attends services, but is pretty unreligous in her views) tell me that she has a hard time accepting heaven because personal interests will always collide, even if they're well-intended enough to merit a place in heaven.  My problem with that view is that it judges a mustard plant from its seed.  I think we will transcend in heaven our earthly demeanors not to the point that free will is abolished, but that it will be superfluous.  In Revelations, where John sees all the elect as being robed in white, I personally interpret that as meaning that all souls in heaven will essentially be the same, except for the perfectified body.  We will all have our somatically unique sentience, but I think that our intelligence, judgment, and pleasures will be the same.  I can tolerate having grown up a Hoosier with my personal likes, dislikes, rational abilities, and dispositions, but I can't really make sense of the idea of taking them beyond the corporeal world.

I just don't see baseball versus football arguments as being possible in heaven.[/quote]
And all this time I thought we would just be loving to glorify God seeing Him face to face. Silly me.

[rkwright]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Feb 23 2006, 10:43 PM']No.

Sin must be a choice.

World #2 can't exist as you've described. Sin is a choice against God's will.

Free will means we can choose against God... sin.
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[/quote]

I disagree with you here, and if I'm not mistaken I think Pap would too.

Free will only means choice, it does not mean sin. A world can be completely sinless and free will still exist (Garden of Eden\Adam and Eve, or Heaven). Sin is dependent on free will, but Free will is NOT dependent on sin.

World #2 has free will but no sin. Its like the Garden of Eden with no fall. Why is this impossible? Its how the world was created, why is it impossible for it to have remained this way?

[quote]Why won't they sin? It doesn't make sense. Mary was extraordinary... not wholly different, just an INCREDIBLE example of love of God. If there are MANY free creatures, many will choose against God.[/quote]

Now you're getting it. It is extremely unlikely, the probabilitiy of this world is very small. BUT it is possible, and so when God was looking at the which world He wanted to create, why didn't he choose that one?

Pap how is World #2 impossible? is this the line you're refering to?

[quote]#2 is not an option because it fails to recongize the possibility that free will presents.[/quote]

I assume by possibility you mean possibility to choose sin? How do free creatures that never choose to sin fail to 'recognize' (though I think demonstrate would work better here) free will? Since Mary never sinned did she not recognize the possibility of free will? Or Adam and Eve pre-fall?

Thanks for the help on this guys!

Edited February 24, 2006 by rkwright

[Snarf]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 23 2006, 11:42 PM']And all this time I thought we would just be loving to glorify God seeing Him face to face. Silly me.
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[/quote]


Thank you for reminding me that I can't even escape condescension at a Catholic message board.

[N/A Gone]

a really good book...i mean a very amazing good book on this is called

"Is God to Blame"
by Dr. Greg Boyd.

i cant give it enough props

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Feb 24 2006, 01:27 AM']Thank you for reminding me that I can't even escape condescension at a Catholic message board.
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[/quote]
I was not trying to be condescending, but rather just lighthearted. My apologies that my comment was not accepted in the same spirit it was written in.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Feb 24 2006, 02:58 AM']a really good book...i mean a very amazing good book on this is called

"Is God to Blame"
by Dr. Greg Boyd.

i cant give it enough props
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[/quote]

Rev good to see you back! your thoughts on this? Of course an open thiest can get around this problem very easily...

[Paphnutius]

[quote]Pap how is World #2 impossible? is this the line you're refering to?[/quote]Becuase in effect in world two the creatures cannot choose otherwise. The creatures must choose God because He has actually "forced" or "coerced" them into accepting Him by what you are calling grace. They cannot reject that grace for God has made them to accept it. Mary never sinned, fact, but that does not mean that Mary was incapable of sinning. In order for the creatures to be free, they must be able to choose for God by freedom of will, this would at least seem to imply that there are other options.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 24 2006, 10:29 AM']Becuase in effect in world two the creatures cannot choose otherwise. The creatures must choose God because He has actually "forced" or "coerced" them into accepting Him by what you are calling grace. They cannot reject that grace for God has made them to accept it.  Mary never sinned, fact, but that does not mean that Mary was incapable of sinning. In order for the creatures to be free, they must be able to choose for God by freedom of will, this would at least seem to imply that there are other options.
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The people of world #2 have the same choices we do. They can reject the grace just as Mary had the choice. But when its all said and done, at the end of time, the people in world #2 never sinned and always opted for good.

World #2 the people are still free, they are faced with the same choices, but they don't choose to sin. A sinless, yet free world. The choice of sinning is present, but they never do it. Evil is a possibility, but it is never actualized in world #2. In world #2 Adam and Eve are still faced with the choice to eat the apple, but they don't. Why don't they ever sin? Because they freely chose not to. They weren't forced into it any more than in our world they weren't forced to eat it.

This all hinges on possibilities. Look at it from outside time, from the Creator's perspective. He can make 2 worlds with free creatures in it. He knows that at the end of time, when the worlds have run their course, that in world #1 sin will exist. There will be evil, hardship, ect all due to the free creatures choices in it. When He looks at the possibility of making world #2, He sees that at the end of time, even when faced with temptations, they never strayed. They always stayed with God and there is no sin in this world. Why did the Creator make world #1 over #2?