rkwright Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 This came up today in my class during a discussion on the problem of evil. The answer that we discussed and seems to be given most often is evil exists because of our free will, a so called free will defense. It had 2 major claims.. 1-(A) Moral evil is due to creatures free will and (B) God could not create free creatures and ensure that they not sin. 2- The world is better place with free creatures rather than 'robots' The objection was made to 1B. Is this possible for God to create free creatures and ensure they not sin? Look at the threads on Mary, given a grace that becomes a part of her nature that ensures her not being able to sin. Or isn't it possible that God could have created a world with free creatures and no sin, yet we're here? Why didn't God create us all like Mary, or create the world with free creatures and no sin (because that is a possibility right?) Help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 This is way to advanced for me. haha But I hope others will help you, because I am interested in what they have to say as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='rkwright' date='Feb 23 2006, 11:54 AM']The objection was made to 1B. Is this possible for God to create free creatures and ensure they not sin? Look at the threads on Mary, given a grace that becomes a part of her nature that ensures her not being able to sin. Or isn't it possible that God could have created a world with free creatures and no sin, yet we're here? Why didn't God create us all like Mary, or create the world with free creatures and no sin (because that is a possibility right?)[/quote] God could have given us all the chance to accept the grace that was given to Mary, but we would still have the free ability to accept or reject it. We are all alike Mary in the sense that grace is still given to us (not the same grace that was given to her though,) but we still have to accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
track2004 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Check out CS Lewis' The Problem of Pain. It talks a lot about this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='track2004' date='Feb 23 2006, 01:16 PM']Check out CS Lewis' The Problem of Pain. It talks a lot about this stuff. [right][snapback]895711[/snapback][/right] [/quote] oh, cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='rkwright' date='Feb 23 2006, 11:54 AM']This came up today in my class during a discussion on the problem of evil. The answer that we discussed and seems to be given most often is evil exists because of our free will, a so called free will defense. It had 2 major claims.. 1-(A) Moral evil is due to creatures free will and (B) God could not create free creatures and ensure that they not sin. 2- The world is better place with free creatures rather than 'robots' The objection was made to 1B. Is this possible for God to create free creatures and ensure they not sin? Look at the threads on Mary, given a grace that becomes a part of her nature that ensures her not being able to sin. Or isn't it possible that God could have created a world with free creatures and no sin, yet we're here? Why didn't God create us all like Mary, or create the world with free creatures and no sin (because that is a possibility right?) Help? [right][snapback]895614[/snapback][/right] [/quote] This is my mom y'all: Free will implies action. And action implies motives. Now one can have a voluntary act which prceeds from the will with a knoledge of the end. You can do or not do something. If a man acts badly, his responsibility of it would be guilt. So in an essense, free will and evil are two separate things that cannot be arbitrarily combined. Rational beings have free will. (What does that say about how unrational our culture is today?) Ah---see! A loss of FREEDOM. What happens when we check free will at the door? Evil. So again, to even formulate the above as the same, is really not to understand free will and evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Feb 23 2006, 02:34 PM'] Now one can have a voluntary act which prceeds from the will with a knoledge of the end. [/quote] You lost me here, perhaps I am misunderstanding. Could you please expound upon this thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Feb 23 2006, 03:34 PM']This is my mom y'all: Free will implies action. And action implies motives. Now one can have a voluntary act which prceeds from the will with a knoledge of the end. You can do or not do something. If a man acts badly, his responsibility of it would be guilt. So in an essense, free will and evil are two separate things that cannot be arbitrarily combined. Rational beings have free will. (What does that say about how unrational our culture is today?) Ah---see! A loss of FREEDOM. What happens when we check free will at the door? Evil. So again, to even formulate the above as the same, is really not to understand free will and evil. [right][snapback]895783[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thanks ora's mom for posting! Though I'm missing your conclusion... That evil and free will are not the same? This is true, you'll get no argument from me there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 23 2006, 02:11 PM']God could have given us all the chance to accept the grace that was given to Mary, but we would still have the free ability to accept or reject it. We are all alike Mary in the sense that grace is still given to us (not the same grace that was given to her though,) but we still have to accept it. [right][snapback]895703[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I think this makes the point even stronger, it is possible that God gave us all the chance like Mary to be free forever from sin. We would have had to accepted that, but we never got the choice. God didn't create us that way, why not? If God is sitting there, before He created the world, and says I have 2 options... I can create world #1 or #2. In #1 there will be many free creatures, and they will choose against me, they will sin, and evil will come about. In world #2 there will be many free creatures, yet they will not sin (think Mary) and there will be no evil. So why are we stuck in world #1 today? Shouldn't the all good, all knowing, all powerful God created world #2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='rkwright' date='Feb 23 2006, 03:13 PM']I think this makes the point even stronger, it is possible that God gave us all the chance like Mary to be free forever from sin. We would have had to accepted that, but we never got the choice. God didn't create us that way, why not? If God is sitting there, before He created the world, and says I have 2 options... I can create world #1 or #2. In #1 there will be many free creatures, and they will choose against me, they will sin, and evil will come about. In world #2 there will be many free creatures, yet they will not sin (think Mary) and there will be no evil. So why are we stuck in world #1 today? Shouldn't the all good, all knowing, all powerful God created world #2? [right][snapback]895805[/snapback][/right] [/quote]In this you are ignoring that the ability to sin is a radical possibility of the gift of free will. in world #2 people still could manifest the possibility of sin. The grace that was given to Mary aided her in being preserved from personal sin (it did preserve her from Original sin), but she still had to use her free will to accept God. It was not that grace did it all for her, she still had to choose God. #2 is not an option because it fails to recongize the possibility that free will presents. Grace must be accepted and cooperated with, free will allows for the possibility for it to be rejected by its very nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
track2004 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I think that God gave us free will so we could love Him. I think of it this way. Ok so my fish doesn't have free will. He cannot decide what is right and wrong. He is not creative. He is bound to instincts in the most basic stimulus/response pattern. He doesn't love me, but he likes me because I give him what he needs. In all actuality my fish doesn't care if it is me or whom ever that gives him food, only that he gest it. God could have given us what we need, but we would not know real love for Him. Rather he gave us free will so we could freely give love to Him, but this gave us the opportunity to turn from Him. In effect, the only way for us to really feel the connection and love for Him that we do and can is the fact that we have the opportunity to lose Him (hell). We did not have to disobey Him, but we did, and we have been forgiven for it. In this way we feel the pain caused by evil, but we also feel the love given freely to us by God. We would take it for granted otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 23 2006, 04:25 PM']In this you are ignoring that the ability to sin is a radical possibility of the gift of free will. in world #2 people still could manifest the possibility of sin. The grace that was given to Mary aided her in being preserved from personal sin (it did preserve her from Original sin), but she still had to use her free will to accept God. It was not that grace did it all for her, she still had to choose God. #2 is not an option because it fails to recongize the possibility that free will presents. Grace must be accepted and cooperated with, free will allows for the possibility for it to be rejected by its very nature. [right][snapback]895814[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I understand sin is a possibility of free will. But again from the example, when God outside of time looks at these 2 worlds, sees them from start to finish, knows every persons every action, and sees that in world #1 sin and evil exist, and then in world #2 with free creatures sees that from start to finish they never stop accepting and cooperating with God even when faced with the possibility of rejection, why did God choose to create world #1? World #2 the people are just as free, and have the possibility of sin, yet never do. Think like a world of Mary's, all always accepting and cooperating with God, yet God did not create this world. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='track2004' date='Feb 23 2006, 04:31 PM']I think that God gave us free will so we could love Him. I think of it this way. Ok so my fish doesn't have free will. He cannot decide what is right and wrong. He is not creative. He is bound to instincts in the most basic stimulus/response pattern. He doesn't love me, but he likes me because I give him what he needs. In all actuality my fish doesn't care if it is me or whom ever that gives him food, only that he gest it. God could have given us what we need, but we would not know real love for Him. Rather he gave us free will so we could freely give love to Him, but this gave us the opportunity to turn from Him. In effect, the only way for us to really feel the connection and love for Him that we do and can is the fact that we have the opportunity to lose Him (hell). We did not have to disobey Him, but we did, and we have been forgiven for it. In this way we feel the pain caused by evil, but we also feel the love given freely to us by God. We would take it for granted otherwise. [right][snapback]895821[/snapback][/right] [/quote] that is point #2 in the orginal post. The problem isn't with free will, its a problem of possibilities of free will and no sin. Look at the 2 world examples, in both cases every person is totally free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 God DID create us all like Mary. Mary had choice just like we do and just as Christ did. She was free of original sin and concupiscence, but other than that she was just like us, or at any rate, just like Adam and Eve, who chose to sin, unlike her. Mary was not forced to love God, she chose to love God. And this is what free will allows, love. Love is CHOICE. If you can not choose (if you don't have free will) you can not love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 [quote name='God Conquers' date='Feb 23 2006, 10:10 PM']God DID create us all like Mary. Mary had choice just like we do and just as Christ did. She was free of original sin and concupiscence, but other than that she was just like us, or at any rate, just like Adam and Eve, who chose to sin, unlike her. Mary was not forced to love God, she chose to love God. And this is what free will allows, love. Love is CHOICE. If you can not choose (if you don't have free will) you can not love. [right][snapback]896210[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Your 1st line and 3rd seem to contradict themselves, Mary created like us, except for orginal sin and concupiscence; meaning created differently. There is not a question here of free will? Look at the world examples, everyone in both worlds is completely, 100%, free. The only difference is the choices they made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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