How I can I prove this?

[lucybeebee]

I was talking to my brother (an agnostic), who challenged me to prove, without using Catholic/Christian theology, that the universe was not created by an evil spirit, as opposed to a kind, loving God. He also said that religious arguements against abortion fall short, since he said that one could also argue that a fetus has an evil spirit until it is born. How can I refute these statements?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='lucybeebee' date='Feb 21 2006, 08:37 PM']I was talking to my brother (an agnostic), who challenged me to prove, without using Catholic/Christian theology, that the universe was not created by an evil spirit, as opposed to a kind, loving God. He also said that religious arguements against abortion fall short, since he said that one could also argue that a fetus has an evil spirit until it is born. How can I refute these statements?
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That is like saying prove one truth without using any Truth since the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of truth (Dominus Jesus). He is asking the absurd (no offense to your brother). To prove something about a spirit without theology is asking to prove a geometrical proof without math. I would simply refer back to the Five Ways in the Summa.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 21 2006, 10:22 PM']  That is like saying prove one truth without using any Truth since the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of truth (Dominus Jesus). He is asking the absurd (no offense to your brother). To prove something about a spirit without theology is asking to prove a geometrical proof without math. I would simply refer back to the Five Ways in the Summa.
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for clarification.

That would be the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aguinas, yes?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='missionseeker' date='Feb 21 2006, 09:37 PM']for clarification.

That would be the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aguinas, yes?
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Yes sorry...[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/100203.htm"]here is a link to the question I was talking about. [/url]

I am sorry, but I am still shocked by this question. It is truly odd.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='lucybeebee' date='Feb 21 2006, 09:37 PM']I was talking to my brother (an agnostic), who challenged me to prove, without using Catholic/Christian theology, that the universe was not created by an evil spirit, as opposed to a kind, loving God. He also said that religious arguements against abortion fall short, since he said that one could also argue that a fetus has an evil spirit until it is born. How can I refute these statements?
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Because if the universe were created by something evil, we would not be born with an innate sense of right and wrong.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='lucybeebee' date='Feb 21 2006, 10:37 PM']I was talking to my brother (an agnostic), who challenged me to prove, without using Catholic/Christian theology, that the universe was not created by an evil spirit, as opposed to a kind, loving God. He also said that religious arguements against abortion fall short, since he said that one could also argue that a fetus has an evil spirit until it is born. How can I refute these statements?
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can u use the bible?

[lucybeebee]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Feb 22 2006, 04:06 PM']can u use the bible?
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No, I can't use theology or the Bible.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

From the Summa Theologica but not "religious."
[quote]But there cannot be a supreme evil; because, as was shown above (48, 4), although evil always lessens good, yet it never wholly consumes it; and thus, while good ever remains, nothing can be wholly and perfectly bad. Therefore, the Philosopher says (Ethic. iv, 5) that "if the wholly evil could be, it would destroy itself"; because all good being destroyed (which it need be for something to be wholly evil), evil itself would be taken away, since its subject is good.
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104903.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104903.htm[/url][/quote]
Evil does not exist if there is no good to measure it by. Pure evil would mean no good. There is good. Therefore there is no pure evil.

There are a lot of unanswered questions but I think it defeats the arguement for an evil spirit creating our present world.

[Seminarian C]

Check out this argument on my frineds blog. It is a very solid one which he wrote specificly for an athest (who has yet to respond). You have to think about it for it is philosophy, but it is very solid. Read it and see what you think

[url="http://www.opendiary.com/entryview.asp?authorcode=D599206&entry=10004&mode="]Link to blog entry[/url]

[jswranch]

[quote name='lucybeebee' date='Feb 21 2006, 08:37 PM']...me to prove, without using Catholic/Christian theology, that the universe was not created by an evil spirit, as opposed to a kind, loving God....
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With the same rules, ask him to prove the universe [u]was[/u] created by an evil spirit. If he argues the creator is evil because bad thing happen in this creation, point to his flaw in logic i.e. he then proposes god is evil, creates an evil universe, and made all the inhabitants with a perminant mark on their souls with evil. That is a bit of a chunk to bite off for an 'agnostic.' If he believes this, he moves from 'agnostic,' (there may or may not be a god) to 'Gnostic or Cathar' (the creator is evil). Movement from agnostic to gnostic would require a new set of arguments.

Sounds like he only wants philosophy. Give him Plato's "Allegory of the Cave," which tells of the existant need of a type of saviour. A need for a deity-like saviour coming to resolve evil disrupts his argument of an evil creator.


"The difference between an agnostic and an athiest is the athiest has the courage to declare what he believes."
GK Chesterton