Altar Girls

[Aloysius]

I don't think it's fair to declare misogyny if someone is distracted by the female over-taking of roles on the altar. it is a glaring difference from the traditional roman liturgy, and as such will be by its very nature distracting. not to mention the glory of the feminine... I say if there must be altar girls they should be required to wear head veils, it is the most proper symbolism that sort of veils out the natural distracting immanence that the female sex evokes.

I don't believe any woman should enter the sanctuary durring the mass without at least a chapel veil on. the immanence of the feminine is no small thing to be scoffed at, and it is part of her beauty that she should cover her head humbly in the presence of God.

But anyway, I don't understand this whole gripe about the laity "being involved". to be involved doesn't mean getting your nice little title and your little ministry and be doing stuff during the liturgy. no, you're supposed to be the laity-- you participate insofar as you pay attention to the drama that unfolds upon the altar. there is no need to be up there helping to participate; sit down and pay attention! that is full and active participation, actual participation.

making it so that everyone has some sort of role to play erodes the line between the roles of the laity and the priests, and eventually there is nobody fulfilling their role as the laity anymore by watching and paying attention and praying and contemplating because everyone's either up on the altar doing something or running around the pews keeping everything orderly (I sort of think we should just do away with ushers altogether, let chaos reign people will find their own seats and form their own lines!) and/or there will be no more priests fulfilling the priest's rightful role because he has delegated everything to the thousands of volunteer laity. this is not the way the Church is supposed to be run... and not only now do we blur this role of vocations but we even blur the role of the most basic nature of humanity, male and female.

it is not an answer to merely say "don't worry about it, your time would be better spent worshipping God or praying"... no: this is how we pray and worship as a community and every aspect of it is vitally important, so we ought to "worry about" every aspect of it. that doesn't say our souls are not tranquil at mass; that says our intellects are sharp. As Christ said: be ye simple as doves but wise as serpents.

[Socrates]

Aloysius is right.

The fact is that for nearly 2000 years of Catholic tradition, no females were allowed in the sanctuary in any capacity at all, and when this abuse did occur, it was soundly condemned by the Church Fathers.
We cannot just dismiss this as mere "misogyny."

And personally, I can't see any good coming out of having "altar girls."

Thankfully, I am in one of the two diocese in this country which does not permit altar girls.

And we do not need a plethora of extra "postitions" to "get the laity involved in the mass." We laity need to focus on our job of prayerfully hearing mass and receiving the sacraments, and living as Catholics in our day-to-day life, rather than demanding various extraneous tasks to busy ourselves with during the mass. (Though I think there is nothing intrinsically wrong with ushers - though they sometimes can be annoyingly officious.)

[nowak.chris]

If it is permitted by the Church, it should not be such a problem for you.
I stand by my chacterization of this condmenation of women near the altar as misogyny. The problem is most definately with you if it a major issue. Obedience is another issue you may need to work on.

The laity should be involved in the liturgy, as it is commual worship. If boys have the oportunity to serve, there should be SOMETHING for the s who are called to serve.

chris

[Socrates]

[quote name='nowak.chris' date='Feb 22 2006, 05:44 PM']If it is permitted by the Church, it should not be such a problem for you.
I stand by my chacterization of this condmenation of women near the altar as misogyny.  The problem is most definately with you if it a major issue.  Obedience is another issue you may need to work on.

The laity should be involved in the liturgy, as it is commual worship.  If boys have the oportunity to serve, there should be SOMETHING for the     s who are called to serve.

chris
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If you accuse me of misogyny, you accuse all the Popes and Church Fathers from the time of Christ until the 1990s of misogyny, as well as those bishops and priests who choose not to allow it now. Do not presume to know my inner motivations.
And there are a number of solid Catholic women who are firmly against having altar girls. It would be silly to accuse these women of misogyny.

And the Church never endorsed or promoted altar girls, it merely gave the bishops the option to allow it if they so chose. I personally see that as an inprudent decision (in effect, rewarding disobedience), but that was the Pope's decision, not mine. It is a disciplinary decision, not a teaching on Faith and Morals, and could easily be reversed in the future.

Obviously you disagree with me on this issue, but if you want to debate the issue, debate it - don't just accuse me of "misogyny" or having problems with obedience.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='philothea' date='Feb 21 2006, 08:59 PM']Just a few comments. (I actually read the whole article!)

IMO, questioning the Magisterium is a bad idea.

The author throws out a lot of assertions without any specific examples or facts, and his supporting quotes are from... journalists?  No one really authoritative, as far as I noticed.

I was especially annoyed by his claim that the motivations for Vatican II's reforms were to make the mass more nationalist and feminist.  Pretty sure those weren't the motivations given in the actual V II documents.  Is he implying that the authors were lying?

I have no particular stance on altar girls.  It's not my call.  If it was up to me I'd stick with boys, but I don't give it a lot of thought.

The last line, saying "the unwanted presence of women at the altar" is really uncharitable.  Who cares what this guy [i]wants[/i]?  Is that what the mass is about?  Catering to personal tastes?

And in that vein, I would not be surprised if there are female altar servers on phatmass, and you all might be a tad more thoughtful in their regard, as they are doing nothing at all wrong.
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Just a note... questioning is good... as long as we look for and accept the Magisterium's answer. Questioning is good because we learn. Anything else is unacceptable for someone to be a true Catholic.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[nowak.chris]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 22 2006, 08:16 PM']If you accuse me of misogyny, you accuse all the Popes and Church Fathers from the time of Christ until the 1990s of misogyny, as well as those bishops and priests who choose not to allow it now.  Do not presume to know my inner motivations.
And there are a number of solid Catholic women who are firmly against having altar    s.  It would be silly to accuse these women of misogyny.

And the Church never endorsed or promoted altar    s, it merely gave the bishops the option to allow it if they so chose.  I personally see that as an inprudent decision (in effect, rewarding disobedience), but that was the Pope's decision, not mine.  It is a disciplinary decision, not a teaching on Faith and Morals, and could easily be reversed in the future.

Obviously you disagree with me on this issue, but if you want to debate the issue, debate it - don't just accuse me of "misogyny" or having problems with obedience.
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I was responding to the ending lines of the article.
I have accused you of nothing.
However, if it is such a big issue that one cannot focus on Mass, at the very least, that one does not have their priorities straight. If women in the sanctuary is that big of a problem, something is not right.

I am not just refering to female altar servers, as the end of the article seems to imply that any women near the altar. As to my views on female altar servers, read the rest of my post.

I haven't heard the Fathers of the Church in any age be so distracted by a woman that they cannot focus on the Mass.

The Church permitted it. I don't agree with it, but I will not rail against it, and will argue with anyone who does. If you disagree with it, lets discuss it productively.
>Why did the Church allow it? (I disagree with the article, btw)
>What would be more appropriate? (again, read my post)

read the whole thing socrates, we don't disagree as much as you think.

Chris

[toledo_jesus]

[b]Nobody[/b] liked my Anchorman joke.

[nowak.chris]

I'm actually finding it funnier as we go!

chris

btw [b]I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT!![/b]

[Paladin]

Our parish has a large pool of altar servers, mostly male but some female. And I'll tell ya, altar serving as a means to call one to vocations goes for servers of [i]both[/i] genders. We've had several of our altar boys looking at the seminary seriously, as well as our altar girls looking at the convent. Now certainly altar serving isn't the [i]only[/i] factor that has them look at this, but it's one of them.

Personally when it comes to females in Mass, I'm fine as long as they don't recieve Holy Orders or do anything in a priestly or diaconate capacity. I pretty much count lay people as lay people, not male or female lay people.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Redemptionis Sacramentum #47']It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension. Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these. Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers. Whenever such associations are international in nature, it pertains to the competence of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to establish them or to approve and revise their statutes. Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.[/quote]
[i]Cf. S. Congregation of Rites, Instruction, De Musica sacra, 3 September 1958, n. 93c: AAS 50 (1958) p. 656.
Cf. Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts, Response to dubium, 11 July 1992: AAS 86 (1994) pp. 541-542; Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Letter to the Presidents of Conferences of Bishops on the liturgical service of laypersons, 15 March 1994: Notitiae 30 (1994) pp. 333-335, 347-348.
Cf. Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Constitution, Pastor Bonus, art. 65: AAS 80 (1988) p. 877.
Cf. Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts, Response to dubium, 11 July 1992: AAS 86 (1994) pp. 541-542; Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Letter to the Presidents of the Conferences of Bishops concerning the liturgical service of laypersons, 15 March 1994: Notitiae 30 (1994) pp. 333-335, 347-348; Letter to a Bishop, 27 July 2001: Notitiae 38 (2002) 46-54.[/i]

The way this is worded, I see a clear bias toward boys. This is not a bad bias by the way. It says that it is laudable to retain boys as altar servers after the manner of acolytes. This is a very clear distinction, since only men are allowed become acolytes, it would seem only logical that the custom should be boys.

However, if the local Ordinary (bishop) decides that there is a pastoral need, women may serve at the altar. This must be done in accordance with the established norms.

[url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/DocumentIndex/556"]Concerning the Use of Female Altar Servers [/url] authored by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments speaks to the admittance of women.

A couple of very important thoughts about this document from Card. Medina Estevez.

[quote name='Pastor Bonus #62']The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments does whatever pertains to the Apostolic See concerning the regulation and promotion of the sacred liturgy, primarily of the sacraments, without prejudice to the competence of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.[/quote]

The local Ordinary has, as the moderator of liturgical life, the authority to permit service at the altar by women within the boundaries of the territory entrusted to his care. But this must be done in a sense of "local pastoral need for an ordered development of the liturgical life." I believe that if there is no authentic justification, on the part of the local Ordinary, then it is not in keeping with the established norms. This is supported by the statement that "bearing in mind, among other things, the sensibilities of the faithful, the reasons which would motivate such a permission, and the different liturgical settings and congregations which gather for the Holy Mass."
[i]Cf. Concerning the Use of Female Altar Servers[/i]

All things being equal, though, it would seem that deference should be paid toward the use of boys. If there is a pastoral need and if it is within the sensibilities of the faithful, then girls may be allowed. Notice the language. Nowhere does it say "should," "expected," or "mandated." It says "may."

The discernment lies with the local Ordinary though. If he deems it to be of pastoral need, then it is acceptable in his See. Since the faithful have a distinct right to make there sensibilities known to the local Ordinary, I would suggest that if you don't like the current policy, write or call your bishop and make your feelings known.

[Desert Walker]

Cam:

You are rightfully titled "Lord and Master of Orthodoxy."

I should have just asked you about this without posting about it.

I haven't really responded to anything so far for several reasons, one of which was the charge of mysogyny AND that I lack humility.

The article I posted (forget whtever you think the author's personal feelings are) was written from the point of view of Catholics who feel as though their heritage has been completely discarded as unimportant by such things as the allowance of altar girls. Some Catholics value their LONG cultural heritage a great deal. I feel this fact is often rather flippantly ignored by some "progressives," so eager to introduce something novel, that they completely ignore the fact that many Catholics treasure some of the VISIBLE identifiers of the faith in its ritual life. You can't change my point of view on that because I've personally experienced it. I know some "progressives" who don't give a flip about Catholic heritage and some traditional VISIBILE aspects of Catholic culture. And I'm angered by that.

Thank you Cam for clearing it up. All I had to do was look at the actual Vatican statement. Believe it or not I would like to not have a problem with altar girls or women in the sanctuary, but it is difficult for me to ignore the fact that until the 20th century this was not favorably looked upon by Church authority.

I honestly find it weird that a discussion like this results in someone throwing out a charge like mysogyny. For crying out loud you can label anyone who says women can't be priests with that! Labels like that don't apply when we're talking about the life of the Church because we the church recognize in our theology that men and women are, in ways, fundamentally different.

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. I was not trying to do that, I was not hoping to do that by being arrogant if I was.

Edited February 23, 2006 by Desert Walker

[nowak.chris]

Unfortunately in my area as the s came, the boys left.

At my parish (at the time) the altar boys were 'Knights' territory. Any activity for the altar boys was largely organized and conducted by them. The year altar s were allowed, the mothers took over everything. Then the boys withdrew from serving. Not all, but most. Now there are as many if not more female servers.

It is intresting, although tangential, to note the current makeup of most children's choirs. What was once an all male choir has become almost the opposite. And they wonder about vocations.

chris

[Desert Walker]

Thank for sharing that. I am comforted by the knowledge that reality is demostrating the validity of my suspicions about the unproductive nature of the new "altar servers."

[toledo_jesus]

seriously...if you make something open to everybody then it loses its appeal. all these daffy women's ordination people fail to realize that they won't get any more vocations with women. women will still choose the world over the Lord, just like men do.

[Quietfire]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 22 2006, 08:16 PM']And there are a number of solid Catholic women who are firmly against having altar girls.  It would be silly to accuse these women of misogyny.[right][snapback]895081[/snapback][/right]
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Yeah, call me old fashioned, but Im not comfortable with alter girls. And yes, they can be a distraction. If one of them flips their hair again, I may suggest she either wear it back or cut it off, or cover it up. but hey, that's just me.
So I have to agree with Socrates here, and btw....Im a woman.