Deaconess?

[ironmonk]

A little more...

[b]The Apostolic Constitutions[/b]

"A virgin is not ordained, for we have no such command from the Lord, for this is a state of voluntary trial, not for the reproach of marriage, but on account of leisure for piety" (Apostolic Constitutions 8:24 [A.D. 400]).

"Appoint, [O Bishop], a deaconess, faithful and holy, for the ministering of women. For sometimes it is not possible to send a deacon into certain houses of women, because of unbelievers. Send a deaconess, because of the thoughts of the petty. A deaconess is of use to us also in many other situations. First of all, in the baptizing of women, a deacon will touch only their forehead with the holy oil, and afterwards the female deacon herself anoints them" (ibid., 3:16).

"[T]he ‘man is the head of the woman’ [1 Cor. 11:3], and he is originally ordained for the priesthood; it is not just to abrogate the order of the creation and leave the first to come to the last part of the body. For the woman is the body of the man, taken from his side and subject to him, from whom she was separated for the procreation of children. For he says, ‘He shall rule over you’ [Gen. 3:16]. For the first part of the woman is the man, as being her head. But if in the foregoing constitutions we have not permitted them [women] to teach, how will any one allow them, contrary to nature, to perform the office of the priest? For this is one of the ignorant practices of Gentile atheism, to ordain women priests to the female deities, not one of the constitutions of Christ" (ibid., 3:9).

"A widow is not ordained; yet if she has lost her husband a great while and has lived soberly and unblamably and has taken extraordinary care of her family, as Judith and Anna—those women of great reputation—let her be chosen into the order of widows" (ibid., 8:25).

"[b]A deaconess does not bless, but neither does she perform anything else that is done by presbyters [priests] and deacons[/b], but [b][u]she guards the doors and greatly assists the presbyters, for the sake of decorum, when they are baptizing women[/u][/b]" (ibid., 8:28).

[HisChild]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 20 2006, 10:47 AM']ROFL

I was in a hurry.  Typo.  If a regulator would change that men to women, I'd be very happy.

My keyboard will be scheduled for a beating.
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Here you go for your keyboard!

[HisChild]

Seriously, I think it's just silly that just because women can't do some things, they are somehow more inferior, or treated any less than men.

I mean, that's akin to saying they can't go to the bathroom standing up and by golly we should DO something about that!

I don't see men picketing because they can't have babies or breastfeed their children! (although knowing the inanity of some scientists, I wouldn't rule that out in a decade or two)

[ironmonk]

nm

[Myles Domini]

All's well that ends well

Edited February 21, 2006 by Myles

[Brother Adam]

thank you....

Edited February 21, 2006 by Brother Adam

[ironmonk]

oops...sorry.

[Cam42]

I strongly suggest obtaining a copy of [u]Deaconesses: An Historical Study[/u] by Aime Georges Martimort.

It is a fantastic study and it is available at amazon.com for about $12.00.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
2/20 - Seventh Monday

I stand corrected.

[HisChild]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 20 2006, 04:57 PM']I strongly suggest obtaining a copy of [u]Deaconesses: An Historical Study[/u] by Aime Georges Martimort.

It is a fantastic study and it is available at amazon.com for about $12.00.
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If you could only suggest one book by Josemaria Escriva. . . and only one, that spoke of his spirituality, would and who *he* was, would you suggest The Way, or another book? (sorry to take over the thread for a moment, but it was suggested to me that I read him, and I'm not sure where to begin. . .and I have limited time before entrance to the monastery)


In Jesus,

Denise

[toledo_jesus]

my sociology of religion text talks about women's ordination like it's an eventuality. What's scary is that I think they are only partly serving a political agenda. really the book tied observed liberalizing trends (from mainline Protestants, but present in the Church) to what the Church was doing and claims that we'll see some sort of minor order for women... kind of stupid, they didn't even mention John Paul's letter to Women. Apparently, the authors of the book agree with most Catholics that you can safely ignore the pope.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 20 2006, 07:57 PM']I strongly suggest obtaining a copy of [u]Deaconesses: An Historical Study[/u] by Aime Georges Martimort.

It is a fantastic study and it is available at amazon.com for about $12.00.
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Found this comment about the book...

[quote]Martimort's book is a highly detailed and scholarly study that leads him to conclude that the role of women has always been viewed by the Church "as much more broad" that the actual ministry historically carried out by deaconesses. As I interpret Martimort, this observation means that deaconesses played a narrow role in an unordained ministry that is in fact less than the role women now play in the Church. This historically narrow role for deaconesses can be seen in one of the main points of Martimort's historical survey. According to Martimort, one of the major tasks apparently carried out by deaconesses was to assist priests in the baptism of adult women primarily because in the early Church people were baptized and anointed while completely nude! For obvious reasons of modesty, women were needed to assist in carrying out the baptism, while the priest still remained the person who would actually recite the baptismal formula (Martimort, pp. 42-43).

[url="http://www.catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2003_05_18_catholicanalysis_archive.html"]http://www.catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2...is_archive.html[/url]
[/quote]


It would seem the above quotes that I posted would cover any question to what Deaconesses intailed. All the key points are covered. I'm sure there is much more in the book, but what more needs to be covered? Of course I haven't read it but in view of the given evidence it seems it puts any arguement of ordaining women to be equal to a Deacon or Priest to rest.

Are there more major points that the book makes?

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
2/21 - Seventh Tuesday
[quote name='ironmonk' date='Feb 20 2006, 09:04 PM']It would seem the above quotes that I posted would cover any question to what Deaconesses intailed. All the key points are covered. I'm sure there is much more in the book, but what more needs to be covered? Of course I haven't read it but in view of the given evidence it seems it puts any arguement of ordaining women to be equal to a Deacon or Priest to rest.
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You used quite a bit from a work purported to be the [i]Apostolic Constitutions[/i]. This only goes back to the 11th century and has some spurious works within it (such as the [i]Didache[/i]). I think the canons from Nicea cover what you wanted to say well enough.

[dspen2005]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Feb 20 2006, 11:42 AM']Has the Church ever said yes/no to the issue of ordaining women as deaconesses? I think Rome should at least consider it.
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It is interesting that you bring up the topic of Deaconesses. In my Dogmatic Theology class at the seminary, we had a discussion over this very issue. The common misunderstanding is that the deaconesses mentioned in Sacred Scripture and in the historical record had sacerdotal/sacramental function. They did not. At that time in the CHurch's history, baptisms were largely of adults, with full immersion. The catechumens were dressed in white and fully immersed into the Waters of Baptism. Some of these adults being women, the practice was to have women serve a function to maintain modesty -- as in cover up certain portions of the body that might be exposed from the water. They served, under all circumstances, no sacramental function.

It would have been most inappropriate for a priest to serve in that function of baptizing a grown woman without the need for a maintenance of modesty.