Deaconess?

[catholicinsd]

Has the Church ever said yes/no to the issue of ordaining women as deaconesses? I think Rome should at least consider it.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

The Church does not have the power to ordain men. Ordination is one sacrament...women can't receive it in any form, be it for deaconate, priesthood, or episcopate. It's just not in the Church's authority...God made it that way.

[shortnun]

There is evidence of women called "deaconesses" in the early church. But the extent of their ministerial duties, etc is unclear. It is highly unlikely that they ever took vows (in the sense of vows that come as part of ordination).

As far as the official stance, I believe the answer is no. But I'll let someone else cite specific church teaching for the full answer to that question.

Also, would you care to elaborate why you "think Rome should at least consider it"?

Edited February 20, 2006 by shortnun

[catholicinsd]

Men can receive all 7 Sacraments, whereas women can only receive 6. I can understand why some women are mad.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
2/20 - Seventh Monday

I'm open to correction, but to my knowledge there has always been confusion with regards to whether deaconesses were "ordained" just as men were ordained to the diaconate. The Council of Nicea (I think?) speaks of them, but does not use the Greek word used in reference to the laying on of hands; however, the Council of Chalcedon (I think?) uses the same word ("laying on of hands") with regards to men and women deacons. I know that two church councils expressed confused ideas with regards to the female diaconate. There is absolutely no historical precedent for women priests or bishops ([i]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis[/i] makes this clear), but there seems to be some indication for women deacons. Not sure, though.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The Diaconate is the first degree of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. To ordain a women a deacon would imply she could progress to the priesthood and the episcopate.

There is no evidence that deaconesses of the past were ordained. They performed functions like helping baptize women (a priest immersing a naked women would be a scandal). The Council of Nicea:
[quote]Likewise in the case of their deaconesses, and generally in the case of those who have been enrolled among their clergy, let the same form be observed. And we mean by deaconesses such as have assumed the habit, but who, since they have no imposition of hands, are to be numbered only among the laity.[/quote]

Edited February 20, 2006 by thedude

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 20 2006, 11:58 AM']The Church does not have the power to ordain men.
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Then who does?

[Norseman82]

I have heard that deaconesses in the early church were the equivalent of today's nuns.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Feb 20 2006, 01:00 PM']There is evidence of women called "deaconesses" in the early church. But the extent of their ministerial duties, etc is unclear. It is highly unlikely that they ever took vows (in the sense of vows that come as part of ordination).

As far as the official stance, I believe the answer is no. But I'll let someone else cite specific church teaching for the full answer to that question.

Also, would you care to elaborate why you "think Rome should at least consider it"?
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Wives of deacons have always been called "deaconesses" in the Eastern tradition. It does not mean that there ever were.

There have never been women deaconesses. Such a thing is impossible.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Feb 20 2006, 01:11 PM']Then who does?
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ROFL

I was in a hurry. Typo. If a regulator would change that men to women, I'd be very happy.

My keyboard will be scheduled for a beating.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Feb 20 2006, 01:03 PM']Men can receive all 7 Sacraments, whereas women can only receive  6. I can understand why some women are mad.
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You can understand? I can't.

It is to be accepted as a CONSTANT rule that whenever God does not will one thing for someone, it is because He wills something better for them. Women who seek ordination are setting their sights too low.

God and God alone has the power to call into being those whom He wishes. If God wants someone to be a priest, He would have made that person a male. He instituted a male priesthood and He decides who has what gender...it follows that He'll take care of deciding who can be a man (and by extension, a priest) and who can't.

Women deserve better.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='thedude' date='Feb 20 2006, 01:09 PM']The Diaconate is the first degree of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.  To ordain a women a deacon would imply she could progress to the priesthood and the episcopate.

There is no evidence that deaconesses of the past were ordained.  They performed functions like helping baptize women (a priest immersing a naked women would be a scandal).  The Council of Nicea:
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Exactly.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Feb 20 2006, 12:03 PM']Men can receive all 7 Sacraments, whereas women can only receive  6. I can understand why some women are mad.
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I can't give birth, and will never experience the joy of the intimacy a mother and child does, but that doesn't make me mad.

Why would a woman want a man's role anymore than a man would want a woman's role. It's senseless.

[Myles Domini]

[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=196&numbers=yes"]Texts on Ordination of Women[/url]

This covers everything

Edited February 20, 2006 by Myles

[ironmonk]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Feb 20 2006, 12:42 PM']Has the Church ever said yes/no to the issue of ordaining women as deaconesses? I think Rome should at least consider it.
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[quote][b]Council of Nicaea I[/b]
"Similarly, [b]in regard to the deaconesses[/b], as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity" (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).[/quote]

In modern day terms "deaconesses" refers to a Nun. They have not ever had equal teaching athority to a Deacon.

[b]Council of Laodicea[/b]
"[T]he so-called ‘presbyteresses’ or ‘presidentesses’ are not to be ordained in the Church" (Canon 11 [A.D. 360]).

[b]Pope John Paul II[/b]
formally declared that the Church does not have the power to ordain women. He stated:
"Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (1994 Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).


The Catholic Church teaches that men and women are equal in dignity, CCC 2203. This has nothing to do with being equal. This has to do with being different. Men and women are different, we think differently, we have different physiology, etc.... Women cannot ever have teaching authority in the Church because it was set forth by God through St. Paul, Councils, and numerous Popes, including Pope John Paul II.

Women cannot and will not ever be ordained... it's Canon. Canon's cannot change. The Holy Spirit guides the Church as promised by Christ (St. John 14). The teaching is infallible about women not being priests.

Though some may not like the teaching, it is best to try to understand why it is taught instead of trying to use human reasoning applied to a teaching of God. God is beyond human reasoning.

Human reasoning is a tool of Satan. We must be very careful when we use it. It has been human reasoning that has been dividing the Church for these hundreds of years.

Proverbs 16:25
Sometimes a way seems right to a man, but the end of it leads to death

Acts 20:29
I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.
30 And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.


2 Peter 3:16
speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.


2 Peter 1:20
Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
21 for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.


Proper interpretation of Scripture and Sacred Tradition is not up to us, it's up to the Church.... As Christ commanded....

St. Matt 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
18 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


I know one thing, that Christ promised that the Church would never be overcome and be with us until the end of time (St. Matt 16:18-19), that those who hear it, will hear Christ (St. Luke 10:16), I know that Christ cannot be wrong. Therefore, if I disagree with the Church, I would be in the wrong, I want to be right from Christ, and I change my views because I love Christ.

Please don't misunderstand the teaching to mean that women and men are not equal, because that is the furtherest thing from the truth, this has to deal with the differences between men and women... God made us for Him, not for us to do whatever we please... If we want to see God, we must love Him, to love Him is to obey Him. The Church does not have the authority to ordain women.

Here are some resources to help you better understand the teaching...

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Women_and_the_Priesthood.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Women_and_the_Priesthood.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html#priesthood-V"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_pries...ml#priesthood-V[/url]

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3.htm#art6"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3.htm#art6[/url] (Catechism)

From the Catechism:
VI. Who Can Receive This Sacrament?

1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (ver) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ's return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.68


1578 No one has a right to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. Indeed no one claims this office for himself; he is called to it by God.69 Anyone who thinks he recognizes the signs of God's call to the ordained ministry must humbly submit his desire to the authority of the Church, who has the responsibility and right to call someone to receive orders. Like every grace this sacrament can be received only as an unmerited gift.


1579 All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."70 Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to "the affairs of the Lord,"71 they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.72


1580 In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests. This practice has long been considered legitimate; these priests exercise a fruitful ministry within their communities.73 Moreover, priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priests have freely chosen it for the sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.


66. CIC, can.1024.
67. Cf. Mk 3:14-19; Lk 6:12-16; 1 Tim 3:1-13; 2 Tim 1:6; Titus 1:5-9; St. Clement of Rome, Ad Cor. 42, 4; 44, 3: PG 1, 292-293; 300.
68. Cf. John Paul II, MD 26-27; CDF, declaration, Inter insigniores: AAS 69 (1977) 98-116.
69.Cf. Heb 5:4.
70. Mt 19:12.
71.1 Cor 7:32.
72.PO 16.
73. Cf. PO 16.


[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.htm[/url]
CCC 2203 In creating man and woman, God instituted the human family and endowed it with its fundamental constitution. Its members are persons equal in dignity. For the common good of its members and of society, the family necessarily has manifold responsibilities, rights, and duties.



God Bless,
ironmonk