Dave Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 (edited) FYI -- The double Confiteor isn't in the 1962 missal ... Wait ... as for the 2nd Confiteor in the double Confiteor, you're talking about the one that was originally done right before Communion and not the Confiteors done right after the "Judica me" psalm at the beginning ... right? Edited February 21, 2006 by Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 [quote name='Dave' date='Feb 20 2006, 11:34 PM']FYI -- The double Confiteor isn't in the 1962 missal ... Wait ... as for the 2nd Confiteor in the double Confiteor, you're talking about the one that was originally done right before Communion and not the Confiteors done right after the "Judica me" psalm at the beginning ... right? [right][snapback]893415[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No, I mean the priest saying his Confiteor at the same time as the faithful. This is what I mean by a double Confiteor. Priest first/people second. That is the abuse that I have witnessed, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 20 2006, 10:39 PM']No, I mean the priest saying his Confiteor at the same time as the faithful. This is what I mean by a double Confiteor. Priest first/people second. That is the abuse that I have witnessed, Dave. [right][snapback]893422[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Ah ... well then yes, that's definitely an abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amator Veritatis Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 (edited) It seems to me that the distinction between what is appropriate for the forums and what is appropriate for private messages is unclear. You have seen fit to correct me openly on the forums for something I have no intention of actually doing, namely trolling. You also accused me of knowing something I expressly stated that I did not know without evidence whatsoever. In this manner, I would ask you, sir, to refrain from accusations. Regardless, it seems best that I simply take the advice of the multiple members of Phatmass who expressed similar concerns and added that you would stand no correction. Ever since I realised this in your initial responses, I have been attempting to distance myself from the incidents concerning scandal, accusation or any other matter of contention. With this post, I intend to let them die. Again, I wish you a good evening and God's blessing. N.B., I recognise rhetoric as one of the arts of the trivium and thank you for the comment that I have expressed it in some manner in my dealings here, and I would never think of assigning to your comments the pejorative sense of the word without you making it expressly clear that such was your meaning. I must make clear, however, that I question nothing with which I agree except it be for clarification. As far as my contextual application, as you call it, I offer it for what it is worth and would be delighted to be fortunate enough to receive wisdom from those more skilled than I in any field. I thank you, again. Edited February 21, 2006 by Amator Veritatis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tata126 Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 20 2006, 11:01 AM']A Novus Ordo done as it was meant to be done is as beautiful as a Tridentine mass. I've been to several. [right][snapback]892752[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree with this!! I consider myself a traditionalist (though I'm sure there are some who would think that I have no right to claim that because I don't think that the proclamation of the Novus Ordo was inspired by Satan or whatever they think) - I wear a veil to Mass, I kneel to recieve Communion wherever I'll be allowed, I have fairly strict opinions of what forms of dress are permissible at Mass, and I've often been appalled at the lack of reverence at some Masses I've attended. But I think that the Church probably had a reason for instituting the Novus Ordo, and I react against the abuses of it, not the form itself. I also consider myself to be primarily bound to obedience to my local bishop in all ordinary circumstances (meaning unless he is expressly violating a teaching of the Catholic Church), and if he has asked the faithful of his diocese to stand to recieve Communion, I won't consider myself above his command even though I would prefer to kneel. I've seen some Novus Ordo Masses in Rome, in Latin, which were infinitely more beautiful than the Tridentine Rite Masses I've seen. If the Church reinstituted the Tridentine Rite, I would be obedient, but I think that the more likely revision of the Mass would be to clean up the abuses and make the Novus Ordo into what it was supposed to be in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Tata, Well said! And what a great example you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 humbly submit to the wisdom of Holy MOther Church. If in Her divine wisdom, it was deemed that the Tridentine Rite would be the Missa Normativa, then I would, out of obedience, give my assent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='brendan1104' date='Feb 20 2006, 05:26 PM']Heh heh, I'd like to see what Archbishop Lefebvre or Bishop Williamson would say to that... [right][snapback]893132[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I dont care what a bunch of schismtic priests would say! Lets get that straight right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='Feb 20 2006, 06:20 PM']I can imagine how beautifully celebrated the Novus Ordo would be if the whole church would simply unite, and the more orthodox priests would take the place of the heterodox ones. Imagine if the SSPX priests were united back to the Church and celebrated a N.O. the way it was supposed to be? Beautiful. [right][snapback]893216[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree fidei. If they would come back to full communion with the Caholic Church...that would be SO awesome!!! And the mass would be beautiful with some Latin. But personally, the Tridentine is the most beautiful Mass I have ever seen still. But that is not saying the NOM is bad...AT ALL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 So, here is a thought. Was the Tridentine Mass ever gone? I mean seriously.....We are talking about a discipline that was enacted about 400 years ago. Why is the Tridentine Mass so great? What does it have over the Gallican Rite or the Liturgy of St. John Crysostom or the Liturgy of St. Basil or the Missa Normativa? Is the Tridentine Mass somehow able to call Jesus down from heaven faster and more authoritatively than the other Masses? Nope. Is the Tridentine Mass somehow able to speak to the mystery of the Eucharist more authoritatively than the other Masses? Nope. Is the Tridentine Mass intended to be anything other than the means for Christ to provide an outward sign which He instuted to bring about grace? And are the other Masses somehow lacking in that capacity? Nope. When we speak of the Tridentine Mass, we should not speak of it in hushed tones as if it were the Mass of all time. It wasn't. It simply was a reaction by a pope after a council to unify the Roman Church; while understanding that this was not to be the ONLY form of Liturgical worship to be recoginzed. The fact that it lasted for 399 years was amazing and beautiful, however, it was not expected to be immemorial. The Mass is. In whatever form it takes. Is somehow that Mass which is at least 200 years older than the Tridentine somehow mystically exempt? No. They are on equal footing as are the subsequent changes to the Tridentine Liturgy. What advantage is there to going backward in the Church? And when has the Church ever advocated moving backward in her spiritual life? The answers are none and never. Pope Benedict has stated that Vatican Council II was necessary and the reforms were necessary. Who are we to openly question the Holy Father? While the discipline of the Mass is not infallible, nor has it ever been the deference we must pay to the Church on matters of disciple AND THE DEVELOPMENT, we must give assent. So, what is so special about the Tridentine Mass? Nothing more special than the Missa Normativa. But the speciality of the Mass is eternal and it is complete in whatever form given, whether it be Tridentine, the Liturgy of St. Basil, the Liturgy of St. Maron, or the Missa Normativa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Personally speaking, it is moe beautiful then any other mass that was created! We (at least I) never said it was "better." It sounds like you have something against it...? The NOM is wonderful...it is a mass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 23 2006, 12:21 PM']So, here is a thought. Was the Tridentine Mass ever gone? I mean seriously.....We are talking about a discipline that was enacted about 400 years ago. Why is the Tridentine Mass so great? What does it have over the Gallican Rite or the Liturgy of St. John Crysostom or the Liturgy of St. Basil or the Missa Normativa? Is the Tridentine Mass somehow able to call Jesus down from heaven faster and more authoritatively than the other Masses? Nope. Is the Tridentine Mass somehow able to speak to the mystery of the Eucharist more authoritatively than the other Masses? Nope. Is the Tridentine Mass intended to be anything other than the means for Christ to provide an outward sign which He instuted to bring about grace? And are the other Masses somehow lacking in that capacity? Nope. When we speak of the Tridentine Mass, we should not speak of it in hushed tones as if it were the Mass of all time. It wasn't. It simply was a reaction by a pope after a council to unify the Roman Church; while understanding that this was not to be the ONLY form of Liturgical worship to be recoginzed. The fact that it lasted for 399 years was amazing and beautiful, however, it was not expected to be immemorial. The Mass is. In whatever form it takes. Is somehow that Mass which is at least 200 years older than the Tridentine somehow mystically exempt? No. They are on equal footing as are the subsequent changes to the Tridentine Liturgy. What advantage is there to going backward in the Church? And when has the Church ever advocated moving backward in her spiritual life? The answers are none and never. Pope Benedict has stated that Vatican Council II was necessary and the reforms were necessary. Who are we to openly question the Holy Father? While the discipline of the Mass is not infallible, nor has it ever been the deference we must pay to the Church on matters of disciple AND THE DEVELOPMENT, we must give assent. So, what is so special about the Tridentine Mass? Nothing more special than the Missa Normativa. But the speciality of the Mass is eternal and it is complete in whatever form given, whether it be Tridentine, the Liturgy of St. Basil, the Liturgy of St. Maron, or the Missa Normativa. [right][snapback]895605[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 20 2006, 10:55 PM']Alea iacta est [right][snapback]893380[/snapback][/right] [/quote] snake eyes buddy. Gaius Julius...that kidder. He was a real mensch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Feb 23 2006, 12:52 PM']I dont care what a bunch of schismtic priests would say! Lets get that straight right now. [right][snapback]895581[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [img]http://shiby540.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/family-guy_evil-monkey_tie.jpg.w560h420.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 23 2006, 12:54 PM'][img]http://shiby540.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/family-guy_evil-monkey_tie.jpg.w560h420.jpg[/img] [right][snapback]895687[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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