Ora et Labora Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 In Vaticn II Council Volume 1, page 96 it states, "...that they [the instruments] are in keeping with the dignity of the sacred temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful..." How can it be that drums are preserving the dignity of the sacred temple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stbernardLT Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 [quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Feb 26 2006, 09:46 AM']In Vaticn II Council Volume 1, page 96 it states, "...that they [the instruments] are in keeping with the dignity of the sacred temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful..." How can it be that drums are preserving the dignity of the sacred temple? [right][snapback]898059[/snapback][/right] [/quote] My Goodness, was David profaning the temple by dancing, singing, and maybe even using percussion. God gave us the wisdom to create every instrument and everything can be used for the glory of God otherwise he wouldn't have given them to us. It is always interesting that eventhough the church doesn't say something directly (like naming instruments) some people feel it is their calling to interpret church documents instead of leaving it up to the bishops (successors of the apostles). It is interesting that I never hear LIFE TEEN speak anything but love towards those people that criticize it the most, but on the other those who are so critical are claiminjg to be right. What about living out the Gospel, building up instead of tearing down, what about the body of Christ. LIFE TEEN is a big arm of the church (evangelization), it would not be wise to say we don't need it. Otherwise our church leaders (those who make the decisions) would have it cut it off a long time ago. Instead they choose from the highest levels to endorse it. Maybe the splinter we are in seeing the eyes of others is simply the reflection from the beam in our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 [quote name='stbernardLT' date='Feb 26 2006, 01:21 PM']My Goodness, was David profaning the temple by dancing, singing, and maybe even using percussion. God gave us the wisdom to create every instrument and everything can be used for the glory of God otherwise he wouldn't have given them to us. It is always interesting that eventhough the church doesn't say something directly (like naming instruments) some people feel it is their calling to interpret church documents instead of leaving it up to the bishops (successors of the apostles). It is interesting that I never hear LIFE TEEN speak anything but love towards those people that criticize it the most, but on the other those who are so critical are claiminjg to be right. What about living out the Gospel, building up instead of tearing down, what about the body of Christ. LIFE TEEN is a big arm of the church (evangelization), it would not be wise to say we don't need it. Otherwise our church leaders (those who make the decisions) would have it cut it off a long time ago. Instead they choose from the highest levels to endorse it. Maybe the splinter we are in seeing the eyes of others is simply the reflection from the beam in our own. [right][snapback]898172[/snapback][/right] [/quote] stbernard...It's awesome that you have had a good experience with Lifeteen, but a great majority of us haven't. I went to LT as an innocent bystander with no feelings either way, and I found the program to be completely focused on the wrong things (read my earlier posts for more specifics). If LT obviously has some parishes doing it good and others doing it completely wrong, then LT has a problem that needs to be dealt with. And as for LT never speaking anything but love towards those who oppose it, that is completely wrong. Again, it may have been your experience, but you cannot make a general statement like that. I have been treated VERY poorly by many LT core leaders because I went to minister with another group, and they were not happy. I was treated with disrespect and rudeness. One persons' experience certainly does not make or break LT, but when a great majority of devout Catholics are seeing the same problems, maybe it is time to admit that there may be a problem here, even if you don't have the problem in your area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stbernardLT Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 This is the deal, I will tell you all as a youth minister what we get from LIFE TEEN, the organization. We receive planning guides for our youth meetings (with a lot of good education, saint, scripture, and cathecism references). THe model for these nights are just like the mass. We gather, we proclaim, we break, and we send. LIFE TEEN says evernight should be ended with the hail mary and ave maria. We receive a liturgical planning guide. With tips on what the mass is about and homily helps for the priest (all in line with the church). It also has commentaries fom teens as to what the readings mean to them. They also recommend songs. They send us excellent media to show to the teens about different issues,and media to train our core team. I have never found anything against the church in any of this. They send us retreats outlines for us to use in our parish. These retreats are always centered around the eucharist and always state to check with your local diocese about the norms for adoration and benediction. I can go on all day about resources we recieve that help us to do better "catholic" ministry. And especially relational ministry, like meeting with teens at their own activities instead of just at church. We receive these resources four times a year. I think most people here are confusing LIFE TEEN (the organization) with LIFE TEEN (at a parish level). LIFE TEEN continuosly stesses obedience, but if some crazy priest does otherwise and calls it LIFE TEEN then why is it there fault.. It would be the same if someone's parish Knights of Colombus group would do something obscene, it would't be fair to classify the whole organization as being obscene. LIFE TEEN representaives and their resources are constanly trying to lead parishes in the right direction, but some people do what they want. I can say this honestly because I used to be on your side until I checked out what the organization itself was doing and found it to be very awesome and "catholic". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 On the other hand, I checked out the organization and found it to be very disappointing. The fact that you like LT does not make all of LT good. The fact that others do not like LT does not make it all bad. But it is obvious that there are LT youth groups that are using LT in a way that is not proper... The name of LT is therefore being ruined, and unless they don't mind having a bad conotation in the minds of many devout Catholics, Lifeteen needs to clean up the bad programs. As of right now, I have seen no changes in the past 6 years in the LT programs in my area. And I blame it on many things...the parish, the LT leaders, and the LT program itself. People in different parts of the country are seeing the same abuses occurring in LT, which means there must be something about the program that is leading the youth ministers to follow through in the ways they do. It is no coincidence that the same problems are occurring. It is a disgrace to the Mass and saddening that the youth are being taught the wrong lessons. Someone needs to do something, and it needs to start with the Lifeteen program itself. If they really want to be orthodox, maybe they should be more specific in how the program is to be followed out so there is not room for interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Defining reverence is like defining obscenity: "I know it when I see it." LIFETEEN doesn't seem reverent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stbernardLT Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Feb 26 2006, 01:24 PM']On the other hand, I checked out the organization and found it to be very disappointing. The fact that you like LT does not make all of LT good. The fact that others do not like LT does not make it all bad. But it is obvious that there are LT youth groups that are using LT in a way that is not proper... The name of LT is therefore being ruined, and unless they don't mind having a bad conotation in the minds of many devout Catholics, Lifeteen needs to clean up the bad programs. As of right now, I have seen no changes in the past 6 years in the LT programs in my area. And I blame it on many things...the parish, the LT leaders, and the LT program itself. People in different parts of the country are seeing the same abuses occurring in LT, which means there must be something about the program that is leading the youth ministers to follow through in the ways they do. It is no coincidence that the same problems are occurring. It is a disgrace to the Mass and saddening that the youth are being taught the wrong lessons. Someone needs to do something, and it needs to start with the Lifeteen program itself. If they really want to be orthodox, maybe they should be more specific in how the program is to be followed out so there is not room for interpretation. [right][snapback]898234[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Its not LIFE TEEN's job to clean up parishes. That is the job of the bishops. If mass is being disgraced in their diocese, they are the ones who have to put their foot down. If LIFE TEEN would go around cleaning up parishes, traditionalist would then say who do they think they are, trying to play bishop. Let's get real and focus on the problems with bishops not sheperding their diocese, instead of blaming LIFE TEEN for disobedient priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catholic Knight Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Feb 26 2006, 01:24 PM']On the other hand, I checked out the organization and found it to be very disappointing. The fact that you like LT does not make all of LT good. The fact that others do not like LT does not make it all bad. But it is obvious that there are LT youth groups that are using LT in a way that is not proper... The name of LT is therefore being ruined, and unless they don't mind having a bad conotation in the minds of many devout Catholics, Lifeteen needs to clean up the bad programs. As of right now, I have seen no changes in the past 6 years in the LT programs in my area. And I blame it on many things...the parish, the LT leaders, and the LT program itself. People in different parts of the country are seeing the same abuses occurring in LT, which means there must be something about the program that is leading the youth ministers to follow through in the ways they do. It is no coincidence that the same problems are occurring. It is a disgrace to the Mass and saddening that the youth are being taught the wrong lessons. Someone needs to do something, and it needs to start with the Lifeteen program itself. If they really want to be orthodox, maybe they should be more specific in how the program is to be followed out so there is not room for interpretation. [right][snapback]898234[/snapback][/right] [/quote] How about we come up with something that may be [b]logical[/b]. How can LIFE TEEN know whether some Parishes are 'doing it wrong'? Maybe, if something really wrong was going on, the Bishop in your area would do something about it. Also, maybe YOU should take the initiative to try and change it since you are so zealous of the matter. Pax, CK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 The point remains that the exact same abuses are appearing all over the country in LT programs. Is this some freak coincidence or is it possible that there is error in LT? To me, I think there is error in LT. Choosing to direagrd that is choosing ignorance. LT is just a program and I just don't like it. And that's alright. People who are involved (in my experience) have a cultish mentality about the group and get overly defensive and end up just trashing those who disagree with the program. I respect your zeal for LT, and I respect anyone who works for the youth in our Church, but I do not agree with the way LT is practiced in every parish I have encountered it in. I mentioned that it is not the job of LT alone to help fix the mistakes. if you've read all the posts I said that it is the job of the parish, the LT ministers, and the LT program itself. CK, I did try to get involved with youth ministry in LT, but I was treated very poorly for disagreeing, and in essence, I did not want my name associated with such a group. I was led to use my energy in another youth program that demanded reverence and bold, non-watered down teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 (edited) So tell me St. Bernard, Was the changing the ending of Mass a mere parish level item, or was it an organization choice? Was inviting all the kids around the altar parish level or nation wide? Skits instead of homilees? I would honestly like to know. Edited February 27, 2006 by Paphnutius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Feb 26 2006, 06:35 PM']The point remains that the exact same abuses are appearing all over the country in LT programs. Is this some freak coincidence or is it possible that there is error in LT? To me, I think there is error in LT. Choosing to direagrd that is choosing ignorance. LT is just a program and I just don't like it. And that's alright. People who are involved (in my experience) have a cultish mentality about the group and get overly defensive and end up just trashing those who disagree with the program. I respect your zeal for LT, and I respect anyone who works for the youth in our Church, but I do not agree with the way LT is practiced in every parish I have encountered it in. I mentioned that it is not the job of LT alone to help fix the mistakes. if you've read all the posts I said that it is the job of the parish, the LT ministers, and the LT program itself. CK, I did try to get involved with youth ministry in LT, but I was treated very poorly for disagreeing, and in essence, I did not want my name associated with such a group. I was led to use my energy in another youth program that demanded reverence and bold, non-watered down teachings. [right][snapback]898403[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Exactly what I think. You'll have to excuse me, guys. I still don't word things very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stbernardLT Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 26 2006, 06:57 PM']So tell me St. Bernard, Was the changing the ending of Mass a mere parish level item, or was it an organization choice? Was inviting all the kids around the altar parish level or nation wide? Skits instead of homilees? I would honestly like to know. [right][snapback]898411[/snapback][/right] [/quote] As I said before LIFE TEEN did make some mistakes but they have contacted the youth ministers, sent videos, sent letters, posted items on their website, and even sought council from the bishops themselves to clean up this matter, and get it straight. They are continuing to do this but the bishops have to step up and do their job at diocesan level. And LIFE TEEN has never promoted skits instead of homilies, I know because I have their liturgal guides. It sounds to me like a lot of the bashers should just have their own council since they know so much and can never be wrong, and in turn can't receive those who are trying to right their wrongs, maybe you could call it Phatican III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 i gotta agree with Nicole. this opinion comes directly from working with LIFETEEN. actually, I had no real opinion about LIFETEEN before 2004 when i became a youth minister at a LT parish, which i then quit about 11 months later. i had a horrible experience with the CORE team members and other adults involved in LT because i was not willing to water down Mass and continue the abuses after the Vatican told them to stop. I actually have never met a more selfish and just plain mean group of people, who claim to be working in ministry to young people out of love for Christ. is LT, the organization's, fault that those people were meanieheads? of course not! BUT, because LT is the source of their opinions and beliefs on "teen liturgy" and making everything "fun" and "exciting" and very "me-centered," you could say that our conflicts over Catholic faithfulness were indirectly LT's fault. please do not misquote me by syaing that LT made these people argue with me or anything like that. but their ideas came from this "LT philosophy" and it seems to me as tho i'm not the only person by any means who has had this same experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 look at old planning guides. they definitely promoted skits during homilies because i have very good friends who were involved with LT 10 years ago and they have told about the skits they have done from that time. im not saying they do anymore, but they most certainly have in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercy me Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 26 2006, 08:57 PM']So tell me St. Bernard, Was the changing the ending of Mass a mere parish level item, or was it an organization choice? Was inviting all the kids around the altar parish level or nation wide? Skits instead of homilees? I would honestly like to know. [right][snapback]898411[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I left his thread alone for a week and look what happened. As I stated back on page 1, what happens at mass is up to each pastor and his bishop. In my parish, we did not change the ending of mass. We were not comfortable with it and therefore didn't. Skits instead of homilies? The only ones qualified to give homilies are those in holy orders. Never did that either but hten again I don't recall getting anything that said to do skits during homilies not that we would have. Nor do we make announcements from the ambo because it is for the proclamation of the Gospel. Yes we did gather around the alter until about 2 1/2 years ago when it started to look like the USCCB was going to say we should not. When it became official LifeTeen national put out notice to it's members. Again, obedience to the authority of our bishops. As to behavior at mass, my parish is a little on the strict side. We go after flip-flops. We don't tolerate teens talking before or during mass. Teens talking will often find themselves surrounded by 3 or 4 core members. Dress is a challenge especially in the summer. I understand the issues because the mall is filled with immodest clothes. Finding modest clothing is difficult but that is another subject. It is a constant fight for all of us in church and in the world. This is not a LT issue. Kateri and Nicole, I am sorry that you had the experiences that you had. I have no experience with a "me" centered mass. Since you have experience with LT then you know that they are first and foremost (and in the past literally) Eucharist centered. I think that sometimes LT gets a little carried away with bringing teens closer to Christ in the Eucharist but it is only because they know that once you recognize Him (and I mean not in your head but in your heart) your life is transformed. I am glad that you are still sharing your passion for Jesus with youth. Catholic Knight, thank you. If you see a problem ask the pastor. He is responsible for the mass. He should be able to answer your concerns. If not the bishop but I would go to the pastor first. What I think so many people in this forum forget is just how blessed they are to have the solid foundation that they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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