Norseman82 Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='geetarplayer' date='Feb 20 2006, 09:11 AM']It seems that we've been lamenting about the horrors of the idea of a Mass outside of a church, but I still don't know why it's such a horror. Could someone please reference where specifically in the GIRM it says that you can not have Mass outside? Thank you. -Mark [right][snapback]892632[/snapback][/right] [/quote] As I recall from TV documentary footage, even Pope John Paul II - while he was a young priest in pre-Vatican II Poland - celebrated Mass outdoors when on camping trips with university students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brendan1104 Posted February 20, 2006 Author Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 20 2006, 12:58 PM']I agree, they likely would not approve them, yet, it is up to the decision of the proper ecclesial authority to decide. I know that this is something that almost never dawns on a ultra-traditionalist, but the Church exists for more than to do whatever Brendan likes best in his own personal spirituality, but rather the Church seeks to evangelize and to seek the salvation of souls. The Church seeks not only what is most ascetically beautiful, but what is going to get people to heaven. The Church has a pastoral, as well as a priestly mission. The only people I have met who seem have more animosity against the Catholic Church than ultra-traditionalists are fundamentalists. I've never met a traditionalist who practices charity. I don't even know what one would look like. [right][snapback]892749[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I practice charity. Edited February 20, 2006 by brendan1104 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='3n1' date='Feb 19 2006, 09:38 PM']Ditto that Era Might. Personally, I prefer the solemn celebration of Mass (latin, chant, incense, etc.) However, there is no question as to the effectiveness of Lifeteen in bringing young people to a deeper relationship with Christ. And, they can remain in line with the GIRM while doing it. I can't speak on the picture you posted Brendan, but there is good in LifeTeen when done properly. [right][snapback]892412[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Um, I prefer Tradition as well, (as all know, lol) and I say LifeTeen has brought teens closer to Christ as well. Still, if they are not completely obeying the rules of the mass, I dont care if it brought closer relationships with Christ. What if they start doing the mass the right way in all aspects...how many teens do you think would leave? The point is, if they cant handle the right way, thats there fault. And I know teens that dont want the correct NOM. Are drums and guitars allowed in mass?? Im confused about that. I thought only the organ or the violin (sometimes.) Anyways, my point is I agree with you... And, what does GIRM stand for? Krisitna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Feb 20 2006, 12:19 PM']Um, I prefer Tradition as well, (as all know, lol) and I say LifeTeen has brought teens closer to Christ as well. Still, if they are not completely obeying the rules of the mass, I dont care if it brought closer relationships with Christ. What if they start doing the mass the right way in all aspects...how many teens do you think would leave? The point is, if they cant handle the right way, thats there fault. And I know teens that dont want the correct NOM. Are drums and guitars allowed in mass?? Im confused about that. I thought only the organ or the violin (sometimes.) Anyways, my point is I agree with you... And, what does GIRM stand for? Krisitna [right][snapback]892773[/snapback][/right] [/quote] GIRM - General Instruction on the Roman Missal And no, it is not their fault - its the Churches fault for its lack of catechesis and pastoral ministry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I have to say I looked at that bottom photo and it looks like a smoke filled bar to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I've seen my share of youth groups and youth oriented Masses. Most are in southern Louisiana (Archdiocese of NO), but one was in Kingwood (NE Houston), TX. Anyway, in my experience, there's a fine line between encouraging orthopraxis and alienating people. This is especially true when they're not familiar with the faith, whether they're Catholic "in name only" or non-Catholic. Latin and Gregorian Chant are awesome, but completely foreign to most teens. If we are to avoid a millstone being thrown around our neck, these pastoral decisions cannot be made lightly nor can they discount what these teens need, know and want. [b]If there is no sense that they are valued or understood, they will disappear pretty quickly.[/b] The two LifeTeens I have experience with, in my estimation, did not violate the GIRM (yes, I've had experience with it), and the music was the only thing some might find fault in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Punk Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='brendan1104' date='Feb 20 2006, 12:35 PM']I don't think electric guitars fit those requirements. [right][snapback]892726[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You havent heard me play the electric guitar then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Punk Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 The music does not make the Mass, the Eucharist does. But why did God give us music and talent for making this music if we can not worship him with it, in a reverant way, allowing it to make sweet sounds of joy, for all to hear and draw closer to the Eucharist? I also have a deep love for the traditional mass with Gregorian Chant and in fact perfer it over any Lifeteen mass! However at the same time I feel that resounding joyful music to the Lord is a wonderful thing. What is the differance between having a choir with a pipe organ, and a contempory choir or band with an electric guitar if they play the same songs? It is simply sounds coming from an instrument. In Africa, they use drums for all types of music and occasion even in the mass. Are they wrong for making this type of music at mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Church Punk' date='Feb 20 2006, 02:05 PM']The music does not make the Mass, the Eucharist does. But why did God give us music and talent for making this music if we can not worship him with it, in a reverant way, allowing it to make sweet sounds of joy, for all to hear and draw closer to the Eucharist? I also have a deep love for the traditional mass with Gregorian Chant and in fact perfer it over any Lifeteen mass! However at the same time I feel that resounding joyful music to the Lord is a wonderful thing. What is the differance between having a choir with a pipe organ, and a contempory choir or band with an electric guitar if they play the same songs? It is simply sounds coming from an instrument. In Africa, they use drums for all types of music and occasion even in the mass. Are they wrong for making this type of music at mass? [right][snapback]892881[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The question you need to ask yourself, is what does the Magisterium desire for us to practice at mass?Particularly, what does the Magisterium desire for American Catholics? We can learn by reading the litirugical documents. The Church is tolerable of using other instruments at mass, but it is not desirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 what a beastly travesty. i'm so sick of liberals getting away with distorting the Catholic mass. I'm already tired of seeing different versions of the mass. Especially the "in order to convert protestants, we must make the mass more acceptable to them" type masses. Whats wrong with just doing it the way it is suppose to be done, why must people do these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Feb 20 2006, 08:28 AM']I'm with toldeo_jesus The point is that LifeTeen (aka LEFT Teen) has already fostered a certain attitude among the teens. Did you see the message board on the Life Teen page after Life Teen announced the "corrections" to their liturgies? It was FULL of kids complaining about the "bishops taking away [their] masses". There was a huge kickback of teens reacting AGAINST the bishops. LifeTeen is not fostering unity as a Church (the Body of Christ), nor is it even fostering true devotion to the Mass... it fostered devotion to itself and its own protestant-like principles. The damage has already been done. Life Teen is tainted because they have not been evangelists nor educators. They cater to the desires of teens at the expense of the Holy Liturgy... what does that tell teens about the Liturgy? Liturgy is beautiful and sacred... far above the realm of teeny-bopper music that usually comes from protestants or contemporary music that focuses on the self, rather than God. It doesn't matter how much Life Teen "cleans up their act"... they've already done the damage; instead of drawing teens "closer to Christ", they've drawn them away from the Church and closer to the touchy-feely emotional mumbo-jumbo of LifeTeen. [right][snapback]892563[/snapback][/right] [/quote] We rule this place. [quote name='brendan1104']I practice charity.[/quote] you could use more practice. But then, so could I. LIFETEEN [b]smells of elderberries[/b]. benefits are outweighed by insidious attitude promoted. outdoor mass is cool, but there seemed to be plenty of space for those kids to kneel before the Lord. When you teach a young person something, it will stay there. People don't worship God to be validated...a person worships God to reduce their ego to nothing. So these teens with their specially tailored Mass are being spoiled by overindulgent leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 The problem I have with LifeTeen is the issue of substance and staying power. I find that contemporary Christian music eventually becomes an item of kitsch, and teenagers will outgrow what they are hearing. My mom had an old vinyl from the 60s called the Electric Prunes. They were a psychedelic group that did their own music for the mass. Music that meant to "bend back" to people -- as it says on the vinyl sleeve. To be honest, I love the music the same way I love some of the music of Hendrix. But the idea of seeing it in something as timeless as the mass today makes it become an item of humor and kitsch. Kind of like the way we laugh at ugly churches built in the 70s and have avocado green carpet. I'm inclined to think that an environment of sacredness rather than "coolness" would have more staying power. I have heard of more Catholics, lapsed or not, having the strings of their hearts tugged by that memory of the mystique of bells and smells moreso than, say, their old Stryper albums from the 80s. (Yes, I'm on a retro kick lately, bear with me.) Mystique and an aura of sacredness has staying power. "Contemporary" music does not. I also find a lot of the music from LifeTeen to be banal -- but I can't speak for parishes beyond mine. I loved what Cardinal Arinze had to say about banalized music -- that if teens wanted that, "they know where to go" and that it's not suitable for the mass. As for working with teens and being current, I think [b]good solid catechesis[/b] and youth groups with intelligent, engaging discussion -- ought to be the foundation of involving teens and be the concern, rather than whether or not the mass has an electric guitar in it -- and yes, if someone wants, sure, contemporary Christian music and games added in and whatnot. I think Lifeteen would be wonderful as a youth group program in itself. In this age of "do it yourself" and so much being customizable, one of the concerns that has crossed my mind recently with too much customizing in the mass, is that, hey, if the mass can be radically customizable and brought "up to date", do people get an implicit message that one can and should radically customize doctrine and bring it "up to date" as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 19 2006, 10:43 PM']it can't make up for its mistakes. The attitude is there already. They crossed the line and made that path available to people...now people will be sure to take the path of least resistance. I would say that LIFETEEN can be as loyal and true to the Bishop as it wants and it will never erase the actual damage that was done. This casual attitude is embedded in people. LIFETEEN smells of elderberries as a concept anyway. If kids can't appreciate the Mass then the problem is the kids, not the Mass. [right][snapback]892423[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree with you completely. I was involved in Lifeteen in high school, but now that I am in college, I realize that what they are doing to the kids is not going to help them in the long run. From my experience, "most" kids go for the high energy experience rather than the Mass and Jesus. They have changed some of the abuses per request of the Archbishop of the Omaha diocese, but the reverence is not there. The Mass is too centered around the kids rather than Jesus Christ. A little disturbing if you ask me. It's a weak organization. I'm just concerned that when the kids get out of high school and see that the Mass is not centered around them, they will leave the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 [quote name='Anthony' date='Feb 20 2006, 06:59 PM']I agree with you completely. I was involved in Lifeteen in high school, but now that I am in college, I realize that what they are doing to the kids is not going to help them in the long run. From my experience, "most" kids go for the high energy experience rather than the Mass and Jesus. They have changed some of the abuses per request of the Archbishop of the Omaha diocese, but the reverence is not there. The Mass is too centered around the kids rather than Jesus Christ. A little disturbing if you ask me. It's a weak organization. I'm just concerned that when the kids get out of high school and see that the Mass is not centered around them, they will leave the Church. [right][snapback]893106[/snapback][/right] [/quote] you, me and Fides rule. Ash Wednesday is cool too, but she hasn't posted a quotation of my awesome words along with her ringing endorsement of my timeless wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 *dingalingaling!* :applause: Toledo's Timeless Wisdom :applause: I especially applaud his usage of the word "squirrelly." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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