Birgitta Noel Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='geetarplayer' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:25 PM']So now my question is, what [i]is[/i] the context of these pictures? Were they having Mass outside just for the sake of having it outside, or were they having a camping trip and wanted to have Mass but didn't have the facilities to do so? Let's not forget that, before he became pope, John Paul II frequently took groups of young people out on camping trips and celebrated Mass out by the river. If I recall correctly, there is a picture of him holding the Eucharist above the makeshift altar... a canoe. -Mark [right][snapback]892462[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I don't think that there's any way of knowing then context. My guess is that it was some sort of outdoor retreat. Though they couldn't be too far from civilization, they do have a table! Fr. Antoine often says mass in the mountains when he's hiking. Mass outside can be done beautifully. There's really no point in debating where/what is going on here though, we just don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='geetarplayer' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:25 PM']So now my question is, what [i]is[/i] the context of these pictures? Were they having Mass outside just for the sake of having it outside, or were they having a camping trip and wanted to have Mass but didn't have the facilities to do so? Let's not forget that, before he became pope, John Paul II frequently took groups of young people out on camping trips and celebrated Mass out by the river. If I recall correctly, there is a picture of him holding the Eucharist above the makeshift altar... a canoe. -Mark [right][snapback]892462[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Not to be an apologist for Lifeteen (I'm not a fan), I wanted to share an old link that shows that even SSPX priests have used canoes as makeshift altars. Link: [url="http://www.sspx.org/RCRpdfs/2003_rcrs/december_2003_rcr.pdf"]http://www.sspx.org/RCRpdfs/2003_rcrs/december_2003_rcr.pdf[/url] See page six. Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 *twitch* Many trads are going to have a field day with those lifeteen pictures -- you know, the trads that call the Novus Ordo the "Holy Mess." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:32 PM']1) I see nothing here indicating it is Lifeteen. It may be, but you should document that, if it is. 2) Lifeteen is not a monolithic force. It operates on a local level, and its effectiveness and/or fidelity to the rubrics depends for the most part on the willingness of the local leaders to make sure it is done so. Just because one local Lifeteen congregation hasn't come into line with the GIRM doesn't mean Lifeteen, as an organization, has not taken steps to fix itself. [right][snapback]892397[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I went to the lifeteen site... [url="http://www.lifeteen.org/"]http://www.lifeteen.org/[/url] The top image I find very disturbing. A Church to the right and in the field a priest with a bunch of kids around a makeshift alter. Things like this is why the youth do not understand the proper reverence that belongs to God. Low rider jeans, bare midrifts, see through clothing, clubbing clothes, etc... are problems that I am constantly seeing with the youth in various parishes. Lifeteen is not helping. So many young boys and girls come to Mass as occasions of sin. The more I have learned about "lifeteen" the past 5 years, the more I wonder why it is allowed to happen. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercy me Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 You guys are killing me. The links show that the pictures are from their fall retreat in 2004. It appears to be an outdoor mass at night. if you have never been fortunate enough to attend an outdoor mass, you have missed something truely special. Furthermore, you are treating LifeTeen as if it were some monolithic entity. It is not. It is a subscription that youth ministers can subscribe to. It gives then weekly meeting templates, homily help for the priest and music. They also offer support to the member parishes. They do not mandate anything. The pastor of the parish has complete and total control of his mass. At our parish the only thing that would tip you off that the mass might be LifeTeen would be the level of participation. Everyone sings and participates. I know that you being a trad, have issues with the music. I won't go there. Toledo Jesus said "LIFETEEN smells of elderberries as a concept anyway. If kids can't appreciate the Mass then the problem is the kids, not the Mass." That is very uncharitable. If the apostles had that attitude then the church would not have survived. If teens can't appreciate the mass then we need to evangelize those teens don't we? They are witness to a miricle and fail to recognize it. To me that is a call to action for all of us. As to the sucess of LifeTeen, I have seen its fruits. There is something really awesome about walking into an adoration chapel and seeing a teen who not so long ago would have told you how boring adoration is. We have had numerous vocations from our program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Mercy me' date='Feb 20 2006, 01:14 AM']You guys are killing me. The links show that the pictures are from their fall retreat in 2004. It appears to be an outdoor mass at night. if you have never been fortunate enough to attend an outdoor mass, you have missed something truely special. Furthermore, you are treating LifeTeen as if it were some monolithic entity. It is not. It is a subscription that youth ministers can subscribe to. It gives then weekly meeting templates, homily help for the priest and music. They also offer support to the member parishes. They do not mandate anything. The pastor of the parish has complete and total control of his mass. At our parish the only thing that would tip you off that the mass might be LifeTeen would be the level of participation. Everyone sings and participates. I know that you being a trad, have issues with the music. I won't go there. Toledo Jesus said "LIFETEEN smells of elderberries as a concept anyway. If kids can't appreciate the Mass then the problem is the kids, not the Mass." That is very uncharitable. If the apostles had that attitude then the church would not have survived. If teens can't appreciate the mass then we need to evangelize those teens don't we? They are witness to a miricle and fail to recognize it. To me that is a call to action for all of us. [right][snapback]892535[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What he said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I'm with toldeo_jesus The point is that LifeTeen (aka LEFT Teen) has already fostered a certain attitude among the teens. Did you see the message board on the Life Teen page after Life Teen announced the "corrections" to their liturgies? It was FULL of kids complaining about the "bishops taking away [their] masses". There was a huge kickback of teens reacting AGAINST the bishops. LifeTeen is not fostering unity as a Church (the Body of Christ), nor is it even fostering true devotion to the Mass... it fostered devotion to itself and its own protestant-like principles. The damage has already been done. Life Teen is tainted because they have not been evangelists nor educators. They cater to the desires of teens at the expense of the Holy Liturgy... what does that tell teens about the Liturgy? Liturgy is beautiful and sacred... far above the realm of teeny-bopper music that usually comes from protestants or contemporary music that focuses on the self, rather than God. It doesn't matter how much Life Teen "cleans up their act"... they've already done the damage; instead of drawing teens "closer to Christ", they've drawn them away from the Church and closer to the touchy-feely emotional mumbo-jumbo of LifeTeen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Punk Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Mercy me' date='Feb 20 2006, 02:14 AM'] If the apostles had that attitude then the church would not have survived. If teens can't appreciate the mass then we need to evangelize those teens don't we? They are witness to a miricle and fail to recognize it. To me that is a call to action for all of us. As to the sucess of LifeTeen, I have seen its fruits. There is something really awesome about walking into an adoration chapel and seeing a teen who not so long ago would have told you how boring adoration is. We have had numerous vocations from our program. [right][snapback]892535[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree with you... I have been involved in Lifeteen at one of the local parishes. I have not seen them do anything wrong or against the GIRM. They simply have mass with an upbeat opening song/ hymn for the procession and closing hymn. The rest of the mass is very reverant. After mass they have youth talks in the Church hall along with games for teenagers. The foundation which this program has formed in teens is very profound. In this small town where I participated in life teen, the Church actual has returned to being the focal point of the community. Prior to this, the town had the highest rate of crime per capita in the province. Teen pregnancys were through the roof, alcohol and drug abuse were extremly high. With an amazing youth minister (who is now part of the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal) and Priest, they started taking back the town! One tool they used was Lifeteen. Playing amped up music that appeals to youth and youth culture and providing them with solid cathicism! They extended well beyond Lifeteen and started other programs which gathered the youth to the Church getting them off the streets. Today every mass is packed, standing room only. There is a great number of young people entering religious life. The foundations that are being formed are rock solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EAnn246 Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Mercy me' date='Feb 20 2006, 02:14 AM']You guys are killing me. The links show that the pictures are from their fall retreat in 2004. It appears to be an outdoor mass at night. if you have never been fortunate enough to attend an outdoor mass, you have missed something truely special. Furthermore, you are treating LifeTeen as if it were some monolithic entity. It is not. It is a subscription that youth ministers can subscribe to. It gives then weekly meeting templates, homily help for the priest and music. They also offer support to the member parishes. They do not mandate anything. The pastor of the parish has complete and total control of his mass. At our parish the only thing that would tip you off that the mass might be LifeTeen would be the level of participation. Everyone sings and participates. I know that you being a trad, have issues with the music. I won't go there. Toledo Jesus said "LIFETEEN smells of elderberries as a concept anyway. If kids can't appreciate the Mass then the problem is the kids, not the Mass." That is very uncharitable. If the apostles had that attitude then the church would not have survived. If teens can't appreciate the mass then we need to evangelize those teens don't we? They are witness to a miricle and fail to recognize it. To me that is a call to action for all of us. As to the sucess of LifeTeen, I have seen its fruits. There is something really awesome about walking into an adoration chapel and seeing a teen who not so long ago would have told you how boring adoration is. We have had numerous vocations from our program. [right][snapback]892535[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote name='Church Punk' date='Feb 20 2006, 08:54 AM']I agree with you... I have been involved in Lifeteen at one of the local parishes. I have not seen them do anything wrong or against the GIRM. They simply have mass with an upbeat opening song/ hymn for the procession and closing hymn. The rest of the mass is very reverant. After mass they have youth talks in the Church hall along with games for teenagers. The foundation which this program has formed in teens is very profound. In this small town where I participated in life teen, the Church actual has returned to being the focal point of the community. [right][snapback]892565[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree with both of you. My experience at Lifeteen in my home church has been nothing but positive. It is one of the things that brought be back to the church. I'd always attended Mass, but it was more of "I have to go to Mass and wake up in the morning. Can't I just sleep." It's not like that for me anymore. Our Lifeteen Masses don't differ from any other Mass except for participation level. Everyone sings, etc. After Mass, there is Liftnight where teens gather in the gym/social hall (that was when I was there. Now they have a Youth Ministry room in the new building). On average, 50 teens attend. Most did not attend Mass regularly before lifeteen. It has helped build the faith of many. I don't see anything out of accordance with the GIRM. Maybe it is different at other parishes, but I think you are trying to stereotype Lifeteen into something that it is not. Some places have problems. And the picture that you showed are from an outdoor Mass. I agree with Mercy me. An outdoor Mass is something truly special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='brendan1104' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:34 PM']www.stvincentlifeteen.org I've seen nicer Anglican services.... [right][snapback]892402[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Really? And here I thought Trent anathematized anyone who attended an Anglican service. So much for tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetarplayer Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 It seems that we've been lamenting about the horrors of the idea of a Mass outside of a church, but I still don't know why it's such a horror. Could someone please reference where specifically in the GIRM it says that you can not have Mass outside? Thank you. -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I've seen good and bad fruits from Lifeteen. I attended a few meetings at a Lifeteen parish when I was a teenager, and I was extremely disturbed. The focus IS NOT on the Mass and the sacraments, but instead on feel good stuff that passes away. The teens involved were in it for a self-esteem boost more than anything else. I think it has done a lot of harm to the mentality of teenagers regarding the Mass. Reverence on the altar was completely ignored in my experience. It was pseudo-charismatic in that everyone would raise their right hand during the chorus of the band led songs. The Mass (which is still occurring every Sunday night) has a full band with drums, electric guitar, bass, and keyboard. It is a mockery in my opinion... HOWEVER, I have only experienced Lifeteen in a few parishes, and while all my experiences have been bad, I can't write off the oganization because as others have mentioned, it is not a monolithic entity. I do see a need for the Lifeteen founders or administration to do something about the abuses occurring due to the interpretation of their program. They have a great responsibility to make corrections, and then maybe change the name to avoid the negative conotations that many associate with Lifeteen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Moving to Debate folks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brendan1104 Posted February 20, 2006 Author Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 20 2006, 11:05 AM']Really? And here I thought Trent anathematized anyone who attended an Anglican service. So much for tradition. [right][snapback]892624[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I saw it on T.V. So I'm not accursed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='brendan1104' date='Feb 20 2006, 11:20 AM']I saw it on T.V. So I'm not accursed. [right][snapback]892643[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Ah, the joy of following the letter of the law and not the letter AND the spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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