brendan1104 Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) Guess they didn't... from www.stvincentlifeteen.org: [img]http://www.stvincentlifeteen.org/galleries/2004/FallRetreat/100_0965.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.stvincentlifeteen.org/galleries/2004/FallRetreat/100_0966.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.stvincentlifeteen.org/galleries/2004/FallRetreat/100_0970.jpg[/img] Edited February 20, 2006 by brendan1104 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 1) I see nothing here indicating it is Lifeteen. It may be, but you should document that, if it is. 2) Lifeteen is not a monolithic force. It operates on a local level, and its effectiveness and/or fidelity to the rubrics depends for the most part on the willingness of the local leaders to make sure it is done so. Just because one local Lifeteen congregation hasn't come into line with the GIRM doesn't mean Lifeteen, as an organization, has not taken steps to fix itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brendan1104 Posted February 20, 2006 Author Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:32 PM']1) I see nothing here indicating it is Lifeteen. It may be, but you should document that, if it is. 2) Lifeteen is not a monolithic force. It operates on a local level, and its effectiveness and/or fidelity to the rubrics depends for the most part on the willingness of the local leaders to make sure it is done so. Just because one local Lifeteen congregation hasn't come into line with the GIRM doesn't mean Lifeteen, as an organization, has not taken steps to fix itself. [right][snapback]892397[/snapback][/right] [/quote] www.stvincentlifeteen.org I've seen nicer Anglican services.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 the problem is that the organization went squirrelly and now it can't control its chapters because of that squirreliness. If the org. hadn't screwed up this wouldn't be happening. Any non-compliance by LIFETEEN affiliates is still the fault of LIFETEEN due to its initial mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='brendan1104' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:34 PM']I've seen nicer Anglican services.... [right][snapback]892402[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Good for you, but that has nothing to do with what I said. My point still stands. And thank you for the citation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:35 PM']the problem is that the organization went squirrelly and now it can't control its chapters because of that squirreliness. If the org. hadn't screwed up this wouldn't be happening. Any non-compliance by LIFETEEN affiliates is still the fault of LIFETEEN due to its initial mistakes. [right][snapback]892404[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That may be true, but the title of this thread suggests that Lifeteen is spurning the correction of the Bishops. Lifeteen may be responsible for the attitude of Liturgical irregularity in local chapters, but that doesn't mean it's not making up for its mistakes in the past, as an organization, by taking steps to change what the Bishops have asked them to change. Edited February 20, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3n1 Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Ditto that Era Might. Personally, I prefer the solemn celebration of Mass (latin, chant, incense, etc.) However, there is no question as to the effectiveness of Lifeteen in bringing young people to a deeper relationship with Christ. And, they can remain in line with the GIRM while doing it. I can't speak on the picture you posted Brendan, but there is good in LifeTeen when done properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:37 PM']That may be so, but the title of this thread suggests that Lifeteen is spurning the correction of the Bishops. Lifeteen may be responsible for the attitude of Liturgical irregularity in local chapters, but that doesn't mean it's not making up for its mistakes in the past. [right][snapback]892409[/snapback][/right] [/quote] it can't make up for its mistakes. The attitude is there already. They crossed the line and made that path available to people...now people will be sure to take the path of least resistance. I would say that LIFETEEN can be as loyal and true to the Bishop as it wants and it will never erase the actual damage that was done. This casual attitude is embedded in people. LIFETEEN smells of elderberries as a concept anyway. If kids can't appreciate the Mass then the problem is the kids, not the Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:43 PM']it can't make up for its mistakes. The attitude is there already. They crossed the line and made that path available to people...now people will be sure to take the path of least resistance. I would say that LIFETEEN can be as loyal and true to the Bishop as it wants and it will never erase the actual damage that was done. This casual attitude is embedded in people. LIFETEEN smells of elderberries as a concept anyway. If kids can't appreciate the Mass then the problem is the kids, not the Mass. [right][snapback]892423[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The Bishops think otherwise. Lifeteen was not suppressed. They were asked to fix certain things. Not to compare Lifeteen with the SSPX, but if the SSPX can be welcomed back to the Church (as the Holy Father is trying to do), Lifeteen can repair its defects which, although not acceptable, were not abominable. It is a fundamentally good organization, and there is no evidence (or, rather, these pictures do not qualify as evidence) that Lifeteen is not doing what the Bishops have asked them to do. Edited February 20, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:45 PM']The Bishops think otherwise. Lifeteen was not suppressed. They were asked to fix certain things. Not to compare Lifeteen with the SSPX, but if the SSPX can be welcomed back to the Church (as the Holy Father is trying to do), Lifeteen can repair its defects which, although not acceptable, were not abominable. It is a fundamentally good organization, and there is no evidence (or, rather, these pictures do not qualify as evidence) that Lifeteen is not doing what the Bishops have asked them to do. [right][snapback]892426[/snapback][/right] [/quote] what i'm saying is that they can fix all their ills and the damage will still be done because some wacko will do garbage like those pictures. It's the same as in the SSPX. If it comes back to us there will obviously be some holdouts who will remain outside of the Church simply as a point of pride or to maintain their influence. All because of the attitude of these schismatic priests. Same with LIFETEEN. Their attitude is what did the initial damage, and it's infectious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I'm not going to enter this debate in detail, but I think that it is worth noting that this seems to be a mass celebrated at a campsite or something. The one girl is holding a flashlight to illuminate the missal. That is not to say that even campsite masses can't be reverent and conform to the GIRM. They can be, I've seen photos of ones that are. My only point is that this is obviously not a regular mass of any sort and to judge the LT program at this parish based on these photos alone seems a bit unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='Birgitta Noel' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:50 PM'] to judge the LT program at this parish based on these photos alone seems a bit unfair. [right][snapback]892431[/snapback][/right] [/quote] agreed. These photos are not any sort of evidence unless placed in context. however, LIFETEEN is still pointless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 19 2006, 10:55 PM']LIFETEEN is still pointless... [right][snapback]892437[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Now, now, that's not all together fair either! Play nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 19 2006, 10:43 PM']LIFETEEN smells of elderberries as a concept anyway. If kids can't appreciate the Mass then the problem is the kids, not the Mass. [right][snapback]892423[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I appreciate what they originally intended on doing. They wanted to make the "Church experience" more welcoming to teens. Now, that certainly does not mean doing what they have been doing. The proper way of doing that would be to teach them what the Mass is. They could have easily done this by having upbeat and fun retreats and such, without touching the Mass itself. They had the right idea about having a fun time, but they put the 'having a fun time' part into the Mass instead of having it during retreats and stuff. Honestly, I experienced the right kind of welcoming when I went on a retreat with my parish. (its not associated with lifeteen at all, though) We had an awesome time on the retreat, with great talks from our Pastor, as well as fun games and stuff. However, when we had Mass, it was amazingly reverant, and it was beautiful. It wasnt some hokey pokey time. It was what you would expect from a proper celebration of the Mass. We also had all night Eucharistic adoration. Each group took an hour slot. And I can say that there was absolutely no fooling around. Everyone actually prayed. So, if Lifeteen would have focused more on retreats and activities to teach about the Mass, and left the Mass itself alone, their original Idea would have worked, and teens would have been drawn into the Mass more since they actually knew what it was all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetarplayer Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 So now my question is, what [i]is[/i] the context of these pictures? Were they having Mass outside just for the sake of having it outside, or were they having a camping trip and wanted to have Mass but didn't have the facilities to do so? Let's not forget that, before he became pope, John Paul II frequently took groups of young people out on camping trips and celebrated Mass out by the river. If I recall correctly, there is a picture of him holding the Eucharist above the makeshift altar... a canoe. -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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