What makes a healthy parish?

[Jaime]

[quote]The dicocese, which also tends to be one of the most orthodox and "conservative" in the country has also seen comparitively large numbers of vocations, while "liberal" dicoceses are suffering a "vocations crisis."

There does seem to be a connection between orthodoxy and growth - something which "liberal Catholics" seem to "just not get."
I know of few willing to travel great distances, or even relocate, to be part of a liberal parish.
[/quote]

My parish has

girl altar servers
extraordinary ministers blessing small children during mass
youth masses
stands at the wrong time
has guitars

and is growing at an alarming rate

Of course the growth occurred 8 months ago when they answers the requests for adoration.

[shortnun]

[quote name='Desert Walker' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:52 PM']My parish has been led by liberal priests for the past 15 years and is slowly but surely crumbling.  It is NOT growing.

That's my experience with how liberalism IN Catholicism does not grow a healthy Catholic parish.

I'd love to hear other thoughts on this.  I am utterly frustrated with it.
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As a former long-time member of a parish in your Archdiocese, I'd love to hear you elaborate more about your parish, particularly b/c I (and Era Might) would love to know what [i]you personally[/i] mean by "healthy."

N.B.: I am not asking you to disclose the name of your parish by any means. But perhaps you can compare/contrast your experience in your parish with others (highlighting similarities and differences, not making judgements of course).

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 19 2006, 10:22 AM']adoration

Once that happens, everything else falls into place.
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The [b][url="http://www.archatl.com/liturgy/adoration.html"]Archdiocese of Atlanta[/url] [/b](which is where Desert Walker is, and where I am from) has 10 churches with perpetual adoration and 50 more parishes with adoration at least once a month.

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 19 2006, 01:36 PM']You sure are talking about the Council.  If there was no Vatican Council II would there be a "spirit" of Vatican II?  No.
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Cam, you and I certainly have our theological differences, but this was a most beautiful and well articulated response. THANK YOU!

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 19 2006, 07:13 PM']My parish has

girl altar servers
extraordinary ministers blessing small children during mass
youth masses
stands at the wrong time
has guitars

and is growing at an alarming rate

Of course the growth occurred 8 months ago when they answers the requests for adoration.
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Let's not equal the things listed above as being directly linked to a decreased number of parishioners. Correlation does not equal causation. Forgive me, hot stuff, if I'm putting words into your mouth. While there should be rules, regulations, and guidelines, I do not think that any of those things you listed are "bad." But they certainly do set the bar high for how we educate the church as a whole!!!

[Jaime]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Feb 19 2006, 07:32 PM']
Cam, you and I certainly have our theological differences, but this was a most beautiful and well articulated response. THANK YOU!
Let's not equal the things listed above as being directly linked to a decreased number of parishioners. Correlation does not equal causation. Forgive me, hot stuff, if I'm putting words into your mouth. While there should be rules, regulations, and guidelines, I do not think that any of those things you listed are "bad." But they certainly do set the bar high for how we educate the church as a whole!!!
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Oh I agree with you. I was just enlightening the masses that its not orthodox plus adoration. Its adoration that makes churches healthy.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 19 2006, 08:39 PM']Oh I agree with you.  I was just enlightening the masses that its not orthodox plus adoration.  Its adoration that makes churches healthy.
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It's Jesus that makes churches healthy. The more welcoming the reception of Himself, the healthier the church will be. The healthier it is, the more orthodox.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 19 2006, 06:48 PM']It's Jesus that makes churches healthy.  The more welcoming the reception of Himself, the healthier the church will be.  The healthier it is, the more orthodox.
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True.

I don't know why people seem to be taking issue with my claims about the importance of othodoxy.
Where there is true love for Jesus Christ, there will be love for and following of His Truth.
Following of the Truth of Christ = orthodoxy.

Orthodoxy by itself, without love of Christ, will save no one. (As a priest I knew used to say, "The Devil is superbly orthodox.") However, true love of Christ will lead one to seek orthodoxy, and following orthodox Catholic teaching and taking it to hear will lead to holiness.

The spirit of dissent found in "liberal Catholicism" is contrary to following Christ and does not lead to spiritual holiness. This is not to say that there cannot be holiness in imperfect parishes, yet it is pure foolishness to dismiss orthodoxy as something irrelevent to spiritual health.

[photosynthesis]

What makes parishes thrive? Well, a lot of things. I've seen growth in a lot of different parishes, and stagnation in others.

One thing that makes parishes thrive is missionary spirit. Parishes that reach out to the community are more likely to grow, because the better equipped parishioners are to share the Gospel, the more lives they touch. I currently go to a parish that is best described as boring and "blah." Some people are very orthodox, some are lukewarm. People seem to be more wrapped up in parish politics than growing in their own faith + teaching it to others. Insular parishes don't grow.

But my parish down in Baltimore is growing, because (a) they have Eucharistic adoration, (b) they have orthodox priests, and © people there are generous with their faith, as well as their financial + spiritual resources. Even though most people I know there are older than me, they were very generous and loving. I never had to worry about not getting to Mass or parish activities (like Legion of Mary), because I didn't have a car. Someone always volunteered to pick me up. When I was very sick with mono, I knew I could rely on one of the parish ladies to give me a ride to the doctor's. I always saw people from the parish at festivals + the state fair, handing out rosaries, miraculous medals + "invitations" to Mass and the adoration chapel, and they did this with sensitivity.

Parishes that evangelize grow because more people know they exist, and the individual parishioners usually have more knowledge of apologetics than the average Catholic.

[Cam42]

You're welcome Shortnun.

We have theological differences? Who knew?

[Desert Walker]

My parish has had perpetual adoration for several years. I agree that it makes a good parish. But at least one of the priests at my parish has said privately that he is against adoration of the Eucharist, and his homilies seem to reflect that point of view.

My archdiocese has become VERY orthodox in recent years with a large number of vocations (none of which are from my parish). My brother is applying to the archdiocesan formation program. When he asked our pastor for a letter of recommendation he said that he disagreed with the way the vocation director of the archdiocese conducts priestly formation. I'm very familiar with the program. It's very orthodox.

The majority of the people at my parish are rather old, and most of the people with money have left in the past few years. All the surrounding parishes are staffed by archdiocesan priests and are vibrant and growing. My diocese has an annual Eucharistic Congress which is an absolutely AWESOME event. My pastor, as well as much of the parish staff, do not support this congress. I know this because my sister works in the office and attends the meetings and this is what she heard them say.

The priests who staff my parish are from a religious order. They're not diocesan and don't agree with they way the surrounding diocese does things. In fact I think they seek to insulate my parish FROM its own diocese! They may or may not be doing this intentionally (that is, in a sinister conspiratorial way ) but I think the facts speak for themselves!

Edited February 20, 2006 by Desert Walker

[Ora et Labora]

A strong orthodox priest!!! With out the backbone.....away goes the parish!

































bye bye!!

[MC Just]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Feb 20 2006, 11:25 AM']A strong orthodox priest!!! With out the backbone.....away goes the parish!
bye bye!!
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True That..

[Desert Walker]

In addition to my last post:

Perpetual adoration is struggling to maintain adoration at all hours of the day and night, even though I know there are people who could fill all the hours. But the priests NEVER, NEVER talk about it from the pulpit. This past Sunday, the priest's homily was mostly about God's forgiveness of our sins. It was actually one of his better homilies. His main point was about the power that the knowledge of forgiveness gives us to face life's difficulties. It all made perfect sense. But he NEVER ONCE mentioned the Sacrament of Reconciliation and its connection to forgiveness of sins. It was almost as if he thought he didn't need to.

The priests at my parish seem to want to squash anything that remotely resembles "religiosioty." The primary attitude at my parish seems to be this: the main duty of Catholics today is to constantly apologize for Catholicism prior to Vatican II. That's the best way I can sum it up. And it is killing faith there.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 19 2006, 11:22 AM']adoration

Once that happens, everything else falls into place.
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ditto hot stuff. Put Christ as the center and He takes care of the rest.

[shortnun]

[quote name='Desert Walker' date='Feb 20 2006, 11:36 AM']My archdiocese has become VERY orthodox in recent years with a large number of vocations (none of which are from my parish).  My brother is applying to the archdiocesan formation program.  When he asked our pastor for a letter of recommendation he said that he disagreed with the way the vocation director of the archdiocese conducts priestly formation.  I'm very familiar with the program.  It's very orthodox.

The majority of the people at my parish are rather old, and most of the people with money have left in the past few years.  All the surrounding parishes are staffed by archdiocesan priests and are vibrant and growing.  My diocese has an annual Eucharistic Congress which is an absolutely AWESOME event.  My pastor, as well as much of the parish staff, do not support this congress.  I know this because my sister works in the office and attends the meetings and this is what she heard them say.

The priests who staff my parish are from a religious order.  They're not diocesan and don't agree with they way the surrounding diocese does things.  In fact I think they seek to insulate my parish FROM its own diocese!  They may or may not be doing this intentionally (that is, in a sinister conspiratorial way ) but I think the facts speak for themselves!
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Ha ha ha ha... orthodox to say the least. Yes, the diocesan formation there is orthodox to the letter. Unfortunately I don't know if anything other than diocesan priesthood has been "advertized" from the vocations office. When was the last time you heard about vocations to [b][url="http://www.trappist.net/"]Trappists in Conyers[/url][/b]? Or how about any discussion of womens religious communities? (Note: I am slightly off-put by my own struggles to discern religious life when I was in high school there and found very little archdiocesan, or other, support. Also, perhaps with the presence of the Nashville Sisters in Kennesaw, this will change for the better.)

I agree, the [b][url="http://www.archatl.com/congress/"]Eucharistic Congress[/url] [/b]is awesome. The diocese is had so much growth in the past few decades. It's truly a blessing. That having been said, national statistics for the American church show that the church is "old." In an of itself, this isn't a bad thing. But you have to reconcile this with the availability to change parishes at the drop of a hat and go where the young 'uns are. (Thus taking their money and leaving the elderly.)

I can't say much in terms of order priests in the diocese.... I mean, if I may make a generalization, there aren't that many religious orders there!!! Exceptions of course being the Mercy sisters who founded [b][url="http://www.stjosephsatlanta.org/about_saint_joseph.html"]St. Joseph's Hospital[/url] [/b] and the [b][url="http://www.marist.com/pages/sitepage.cfm?id=32&pname=Home&purl=index.cfm"]Marist priests and brothers.[/url] [/b]But it's the Bible Belt... the presence of religious orders isn't quite the same as the "catholic" cities of the midwest and new england regions. The bottom line though, I agree that isolation from the diocese as a whole is not at all an indication that the parish is healthy.

[quote name='Desert Walker' date='Feb 20 2006, 03:20 PM']In addition to my last post:

Perpetual adoration is struggling to maintain adoration at all hours of the day and night, even though I know there are people who could fill all the hours.  But the priests NEVER, NEVER talk about it from the pulpit.  This past Sunday, the priest's homily was mostly about God's forgiveness of our sins.  It was actually one of his better homilies.  His main point was about the power that the knowledge of forgiveness gives us to face life's difficulties.  It all made perfect sense.  But he NEVER ONCE mentioned the Sacrament of Reconciliation and its connection to forgiveness of sins.  It was almost as if he thought he didn't need to.

The priests at my parish seem to want to squash anything that remotely resembles "religiosioty."  The primary attitude at my parish seems to be this:  the main duty of Catholics today is to constantly apologize for  Catholicism prior to Vatican II.  That's the best way I can sum it up.  And it is killing faith there.
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I know two other parishes who struggle with filling nocturnal hours. I try to help out when I'm in town...... okay, this is a pet peve of mine..... the homily is not a time for parish announcements and advertising (maybe this isn't what you're implying should happen)!!!! The homily should be exegetical (that is, based off of the scriptures) and catechetical (meaning some application to daily life--moral, formational, etc--is necessary). This presents a challenge to the leaders of today's parishes.... how do you get people involved? How do you educate them and help them to be aware of the things that are going on in the parish, the community, and the diocese as a whole?! It's a huge challenge!!! And back to the original topic at hand, a healthy parish is one whose parishioners are aware of and involved in the events of the parish, community, and the global church.

And with regard to the apology for pre Vat II Catholicism, perhaps this is a real need to be addressed if your parish demographic is largely an older crowd. I wouldn't know specifically, b/c I don't know your parish. But I would agree that the homily is not the time to address (and/or attempt to resolve) such matters.

Just an aside......... ever thought of going to another parish?

Edited February 21, 2006 by shortnun

[Desert Walker]

Wow. So many things to reply to.

My personal definition of a healthy parish is one in which the people are actually interested in their faith. From that interest I would hope that a "missionary spirit" begins to grow. For that to happen, people need to be given a sense of urgency by their priests. They need to be told how much the world needs Christ and His Church. But if priests NEVER talk about the threat of evil (from Satan), the tendency to sin (original sin), the reality of Hell, and the need for true repentance and metanoia, WHO THE HECK IS EVER GOING TO CHANGE!? And if few people in the church ever really change, authentic Christian community will never be truly built.

Priests set the agenda for a parish. That has really not changed. And if the agenda set by the priests is undefinable (which it is at my parish) nothing will be accomplished toward growing a Christian community.
My priests talk, and talk, and talk, and talk about "building community," but when push comes to shove, the people are waaay more interested in politics and gossip than authentic Christian goodness. The people at my parish don't like to talk or hear about sin or the guilt that one should feel for sin. Do you people have ANY idea what kind of a community that attitude builds?! One that is CHOKED by its own pride and "feelings of self-confidence."

And God forbid anybody mention the sacrificial nature of the Mass! Mass isn't about the great price for which we were bought, it's about building community! Well... heh heh. If you ignore one and preach only the other people will eventually lose a sense of humility. God forbid that anyone should ever feel bad about what they do in a day! This is the kind of carp that my priests feed the people at my parish, because they have a liberal mind.
----------------------------
girl altar servers
extraordinary ministers blessing small children during mass
youth masses
stands at the wrong time
has guitars

Yeah we've got those things at our parish too and I don't think they're doing much good.

It doesn't matter, though, whether everyone gets the rubrics EXACTLY right all the time, it does matter whether there is an effort get them right though.

There's nothing wrong with guitars at Mass (I like em), but there's something wrong if traditional music is thrown out comepletely as though it's a threat to people's lives or something.

There's even less wrong with youth masses, but there's a problem when youth never go to an "adult" (adult?) mass (isn't the obvious division here a little unsettling anyway?). And there's REALLY something wrong if parish leadership think that youth are incompatible with any Mass other than one that is supposedly oriented toward young people!

As for female altar servers: this allowance has not improved anything in the Church, and has quite possibly contributed in some way to the fall in responses to the call to the priesthood by young men. And for that reason alone I believe pastors should seriously consider not allowing altar girls. If I were a pastor I would not be able to sleep at night knowing that altar service was not excluded to boys and men at my parish. Why? Because service at the altar could easily be turned into a program of priestly vocation cultivation. To disagree with this is to put cultural needs above Church needs. The Mass happens because of priests, and saying Mass should be considered by men considering a vocation to the priesthood to be the most important thing they would do as priests. This could be shown to young men in altar service. And it makes no sense to allow girls in there too because women can't be priests for crying out loud! It's a distraction.

I have no problem with extraordinary ministers as long as they are aware of their place and rank in the sanctuary and the priest is aware of rank and place. I see this not. I'm pretty sure that my priests have entertained the notion that "priest, prophet, and king" means that all Christians are clergy. It seems that way sometimes.

Shortnun mentioned promotion of vocations in the ARCHATL. Shortnun, and everyone, don't take this the wrong way, but religious orders are quickly becoming renegades, primarily the old ones. The Trappists are, in my opinion, out to lunch. Not ALL of course, but as an order attached to the ship of the Church they've weighed anchor and are drifting out into the world to see what "interesting things" can be found there. Just look at what happened to Merton. I spent two years in formation in an old religious order. These folks can't figure out who they are. That's their main problem. The religious order that runs my parish has a host of problems, and the longer they are at my parish the more of that stuff comes to light. They have people leaving their order because the members politic about what constitutes effective preistly ministry. Don't tell me "oh this goes on all the time." No, they're arguing about stuff like the importance of moral laws in one's life!

I REALLY like the Dominicans in Nashville, but I worry that even an order like their's could lose it's way because many of their older peers are doing so much supposedly "contemporary" stuff.

I think that bishops like Wilton Gregory (ATL) should consider starting religious communities for women whose mother superior would be answerable to the bishop. The primary purpose of these communities would be to teach children the faith. I don't know how you would grow something like that, but parishes all over the world are in DESPERATE need of dedicated teachers of the Catholic religion. Without that the next generation of Catholics will have to somehow rediscover their faith in adulthood. I teach religion to some kids at my parish........ people I'm getting tired of typing this post because thinking about the effects of liberalism on the Church (which is actually simple MEDIOCRITY) WEARIES me so much i can stand it sometimes.

I'm aware of a lot of destructive stuff going on because of liberal thinking among Catholics. NO one will ever be able to change my opinion about the dangers of liberalism because I am seeing firsthand what it can do in my own life and in the lives of the people around me.

what a scattered post