Charismatics, Trads, and Orthodoxy

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Akalyte' date='Feb 17 2006, 01:48 PM']personally, i think the charismatic movement was created because people were looking for "more", The nomal mass wasnt enough. Same reason why the penecostal church was founded. I'm not  into the whole charismatic thing. Our gifts are all there at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we dont need an add on.
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ditto! i wasnt into the whole charasmatic thing either. it it always seems that they were just searching for more...for some reason.

i personally dont know how they got "more" with guitars and clapping.

[shortnun]

[quote name='nowak.chris' date='Feb 16 2006, 11:20 PM']Ok I was thinking about posting this a while ago, but never was able to get around to it.
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Glad you finally did!

[quote name='nowak.chris' date='Feb 16 2006, 11:20 PM']Else we would have the Latin Mass with liturgical dancers, at which point I become a hermit!
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That is the most hilarious mental image!

[quote name='Specter' date='Feb 17 2006, 12:18 AM']faith isn't about emotion, it's about making a choice.
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AMEN!

[quote name='philothea' date='Feb 17 2006, 11:32 AM']I think both communities benefit from the Us vs. Them mentality, where they feel special and, perhaps, oppressed.  But, while being oppressed may be Christian, thinking "We're better than everyone else" is [i]not[/i].
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Correct!

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 17 2006, 02:33 PM']yes I'm in Steubenville. I'm not Charasmatic or traditionalist. I'm simply Catholic.
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I'm [u]not[/u] at Steubenville. But I am neither Cmat or Trad. I'm a Roman Catholic.


I'm really enjoying the conversations I've read thus far, and have nothing further to contribute at this time.

[jezic]

while i do not purport to speak for everyong, the true fruit of Charismatics are not clapping or guitars but a sense and awareness of the Spirit. The true renewal is about being drawn by him to Jesus and into the heart of the Trinity.

Americans want things the other way, we want active stuff. This is not the fullness of the renewal though.

[jezic]

The Church didn't loose the Holy Spirit.

it is kind of like this.

Think of the Holy Spirit as a coin, a very nice one at that.

The Charismatic renewal is about discovering the true value and importance of that coin and polishing it a little bit.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Akalyte' date='Feb 17 2006, 01:48 PM']personally, i think the charismatic movement was created because people were looking for "more", The nomal mass wasnt enough. Same reason why the penecostal church was founded. I'm not  into the whole charismatic thing. Our gifts are all there at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we dont need an add on.
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This is just your personal opinion, and you cannot presume to know why the Charismatic movement was created. (And something tells me you don't know any actual Charismatic Catholics.)
There are many very solid, orthodox and faithful Catholics involved in the Charismatic movement. I'm not personally Charismatic, and I have doubts about some Charismatic practices, but I would never question the faith of those involved. I have often seen stronger and more enthusiastic faith from Charismatics than from "Trads."

Charismatic Catholics are not all out to destroy the traditional Faith and promote heresy. Trads need to learn a little charity, and stop thinking every Catholic who isn't just like them has evil intentions.

Personally, while I've seen a lot of Trads attack the Charismatic movement, I've seen very few Charismatics attack the Traditionalist movement, or claim that all Catholics must be Charismatic.

[Cam42]

StThomasMore,

If you are not going to listen to me, at least listen to the others here, they are trying to teach you.

You are travelling down a path that is desperately close to error.

Vatican Council II is infallible, regardless of what you say. If you have proof to the contrary please provide it. I daresay that you cannot, no matter how much you chatter about it, because that is simply an erroneous thought.

ALL of the teachings of Vatican Council II including the 1983 CIC and the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church which are direct mandates of Vatican Council II are part of the Magisterial teaching of the Church and must be adhered to. This includes Dignitatis Humanae.

Era might and Paph are correct.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Opening Address of the Second Vatican Council
Given by His Holiness John XXIII
October 11, 1962


Note: Please note these two paragraphs below (the entire address follows) which clearly state that the Council had a predominantly pastoral nature. Pastoral orientations and disciplines are not infallible, and there can be no "dissent" from dogma if no dogma is pronounced. The only statements of the Second Vatican Council which are infallible are those which merely repeat what had been infallibly taught before. The Council was not an exercise of the Extraordinary or Ordinary Universal Magisterium, but only of the Authenic Ordinary Magisterium. The misunderstanding of this simple fact, the Council documents' ambigious language, and Modernist interpretations of those documents in the "Spirit of Vatican II" are a main source of post-Conciliar confusion:
The salient point of this Council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all.

For this a Council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character. 
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What do you think of that?

[Cam42]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 17 2006, 10:04 PM']What do you think of that?
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I'd like a [url="http://www.fisheaters.com/openingaddress.html"]citation and link[/url] for this.....from what is listed as source, it is incompatible with what is written. The text speaks of the Vatican Council II in the past tense, however the date is prior to the Vatican Council II.

Also, quoting fisheaters.com is not exactly the best way to prove your point in an orthodox manner.

Oh, quoting the analysis of the text is not quoting the text itself. Let's see what the text actually says:

[quote name='Bl. Pope John XXIII'][b]Ecumenical Councils, whenever they are assembled, are [u]a solemn celebration of the union of Christ and His Church, and hence lead to the universal radiation of truth[/u], to the proper guidance of individuals in domestic and social life, to the strengthening of spiritual energies for a perennial uplift toward real and everlasting goodness.[/b][/quote]

[quote name='ibid.'][b][u]The manner in which sacred doctrine is spread, this having been established, it becomes clear how much is expected from the Council in regard to doctrine.[/u][/b] That is, [u]the Twenty-first Ecumenical Council, which will draw upon the effective and important wealth of juridical, liturgical, apostolic, and administrative experiences, wishes to transmit the doctrine, pure and integral, [b]without any attenuation or distortion[/b], which throughout twenty centuries, notwithstanding difficulties and contrasts, has become the common patrimony of men.[/u] [i]It is a patrimony not well received by all, but always a rich treasure available to men of good will.[/i][/quote]

[quote name='ibid.']We might say that heaven and earth are united in the holding of the Council -- the saints of heaven to protect our work, the faithful of the earth continuing in prayer to the Lord, and you, [b][u]seconding the inspiration of the Holy Spirit [/u]in order that the work of all may correspond to the modern expectations and needs of the various peoples of the world.[/b][/quote]

What do I think? I think that you are misinformed and being spoon fed error. That is what I think. Try again.

[nowak.chris]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 17 2006, 08:28 PM']This is just your personal opinion, and you cannot presume to know why the Charismatic movement was created.  (And something tells me you don't know any actual Charismatic Catholics.)
There are many very solid, orthodox and faithful Catholics involved in the Charismatic movement.  I'm not personally Charismatic, and I have doubts about some Charismatic practices, but I would never question the faith of those involved.  I have often seen stronger and more enthusiastic faith from Charismatics than from "Trads."

Charismatic Catholics are not all out to destroy the traditional Faith and promote heresy.  Trads need to learn a little charity, and stop thinking every Catholic who isn't just like them has evil intentions.

Personally, while I've seen a lot of Trads attack the Charismatic movement, I've seen very few Charismatics attack the Traditionalist movement, or claim that all Catholics must be Charismatic.
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I never claimed this to be more than my opinion, but I have researched both sides. Thus, I can presume to know how the carismatic movement started if I traced back to the common event that most American charismatics cite as the beginning of the CCR in America. That event, the Duquesne Weekend, was the fruits of Catholics who werelooking for sometinhg more. They stumbled across the Pentacostal movement, ard there received their 'baptism' in the Spirit. THis lead to the aforementioned weekend, a retreat at which many were 'baptised'. I also looked into the founding of the modern Pentacostal movement, and found very nearly the attitudes that I have encountered in the Charismatic Movement.

Most of my friends through recent years are various degrees of Cmats. In fact, I was noted as THE trad among them. (meaning I wouldn't FOP and was reluctant to attend other P&W)

You have seen a more zealous faith, I have no doubts. But I have seen abuses tolerated at Cmat Masses that would never occur at a Trad Mass. Niether side is completely in the right, that is my point.
Cmats may not deliberately seek to topple traditional faith, but overemphasis on the personal relationship has often led to a decrease in devotion to the sacraments. Trads need to learn charity no more than many Cmats, both have their over zealous proponents, not every one who criticizes the Cmats has evil intentions.

I have repeadtly been told I had to be Charismatic, and been given the impression that unless you're on the inside, you can't possibly know what you're missing.

The funny thing is I am claiming that all catholics need to be both Trad and Cmat.

c

[Cam42]

[quote name='nowak.chris' date='Feb 17 2006, 10:54 PM']The funny thing is I am claiming that all catholics need to be both Trad and Cmat.
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This is an interesting thought.....will you please expound upon it. Again, I think that the Cursillo movement of the 1940's has something to do with it.

However, could you please extend your thoughts.....I am very curious.

[Cam42]

[quote name='nowak.chris' date='Feb 17 2006, 02:57 PM']Cmats and Trads in the Church, correct.  (the other issues would tend to cloud the issues).

It is not that they are in error theologically, but the divisions that they foster are an error in judgement, against reason.  I would love to see them join together rather then pitting themselves against each other. 

I believe that reform, of the cmats against the 'spirit' of Vatican II, and of the trads towards the reforms of Vatican II.  The liturgical reform advocated by both our Holy Father and Cardinal Arinze is a step towards that balance.

chris
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I am starting to see where you are going with this.....I think that there might be something there, however, in order for this thought to be properly explored, I think that the Liturgy needs to be properly implemented. I think that there needs to be a return to the understanding of unity (of clergy) in the Mass rubrics. Once that is done, I think that then we can move forward with your idea. Or at least for the sake of the conversation, we need to assume this to be the case.

[nowak.chris]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 17 2006, 11:15 PM']I am starting to see where you are going with this.....I think that there might be something there, however, in order for this thought to be properly explored, I think that the Liturgy needs to be properly implemented.  I think that there needs to be a return to the understanding of unity (of clergy) in the Mass rubrics.  Once that is done, I think that then we can move forward with your idea.  Or at least for the sake of the conversation, we need to assume this to be the case.
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These 2 movements embody the life of the Church, almost, if not, completely.
The reverence of trads and the zeal of cmats, we are all called to this.
the 7 sacraments, the true out poring of the spirit
the beautiful liturgies, truly worshiping God
they are two halves, one whole

I am not familiar with the Cursillo movement, but will try to look into it by the morrow.

Yes, the Liturgy must be the start. Too much is left open, too much is seen as a departure from the past. Hopefully we do not need to revise the liturgy, but if even that is necessary, let it be done! The faithful offering of the Novus Ordo, by the book would be a wonderful start. (BTW now the trads will be as upset as the "I'm not cmats, but..." group)

[Laudate_Dominum]

spam

[img]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b17/fangorn35/thumboutsourcedsanta7tc.jpg[/img]

[Donna]

How can they be one with the errors of "that poor country" spreading? Infighting, mistrust of one's brethren, isn't that par for the course in "that poor country"? I am not trying to stir anything up, but believe it to be true.

But people being rude and acting stupid doesn't help whether Trad or whatever.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Donna

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='nowak.chris' date='Feb 17 2006, 01:48 AM']The current Cmat movement was born out of the Penecostal movement, as a matter of historical fact.  In this, I trace several of my objections to the current Cmatic movement as I experienced and interacted with it in Steubie and NJ. 
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what charismatic stuff have you done in NJ?