President Bush Says He's A Christian Man

[CICCIO]

Its a possibility that the only way to deal with this case is the eath penalty, but im still doing y research to figure all this out. I'll post my findings and responses to everyones comments toward me and this siduation.

[Matty_boy]

I've had this same conversation with some friends at school. If there is a threat to human life in keeping saddam alive (anyone ever see Air Force One?) then it would be okay to execute him. His death would not be a punishment, but protection from some Hollywood movie plot coming to life. I know it sounds far fetched, but after Clinton copied the movie "Wag the Dog" and bombed Iraq on the same weekend as his deposition in the Monica Lewinsky trial, I'll believe anything. We should never execute someone out of vengence or punishment, but to protect others from that person.

[JP2Iloveyou]

I think it is also important to remember that the doctrine on the DP is related to the doctrine of double effect. The intent is not to kill the person, the intent is to keep society safe; a sad byproduct of that good intent is that the killer, in this case, Hussein, must die. The "rare cases" when the DP can be applied are not as rare in Iraq as they are here since we have a much better prison system and security sytem. Also, part of the reason of incarceration or the DP is to protect society, not only from the killer (Hussein) but from people who agree with him and want him back. So, if it is the only way to avoid hundreds of suicide bombers trying to get enough backing to get him released, the DP would be justified to take away their motive, I would think.

Also, Vianney, I agree with you. I am currently writing a paper on why I truly think the war was justified according to Catholic just war doctrine. I would be happy to post in on phatmass or e-mail to everyone when I'm finished. It might not be for awhile though.

[CICCIO]

So here are my findings. Hope this is helpful to everyone.

CCC 2267:

" Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility hae been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does nto exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this in the only possible way of efectively defending human lives against the unjust agressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend an project people's safty from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keepin with the concrete condition of the common good and more in conformity with the digity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of te possibilities whch the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed na offence incabable of doing harm- withouth definitively taking away from him the possibiity of redeeming himself- the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are very rare, if not practicaly non-existant.'*

* [John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56.]"

see also 2266 i guess.

My High School Ctholic Social Justice Teachings courses text book offers these quotes:

"CRIMINALS: SILL LOVED BY GOD

The claim that the circumstances surrounding human life do not affect its sacredness applies to criminals too. The U.S. Catholic bishops sum up the churche's opposition to captial punishment in one sentence: 'The antidote to ciolence is love, not more violence' (Living the Gospel of Life, 22) In addition, two other teachings shed light on why the church opposes capital punishment:

- God never stops loving us, even when we reject that loe through sin. So although we harm our own dignity when we sin, that dignity - and the right to life that goes with thi- is not taken away(based on The Gospel of Life [Evangelium Vitae], 9).

- The primary aim of punishment is to heal the harm that was caused through the sin or criminal action. Punishment also serves to protect society from harmfyl behavior, and to help the guilty erson sorrect his or her behavior (adapted from Catechism, 2266). Revenge is not the goal of puishment.

Traditionaly, Catholic social teaching has allowed for the executiion of violent criminals 'if this is the only possible way of effectively defending huan lives agains he unjsut agressor' ( Catecism, 2267). However, the church notes that instance where the death penalty is the only way of defending the common good of the community '"are very rare, if not practically on-esistent"' (2267). For this reason the U.S. Catholic bishops have been calling for n end to capital punishment since the early 1970s. And note the following words from John Paul II, speaking at a mass in Saint Louis in 1999:

The dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the apeal I made most recently at Christman for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary. (Quoted in "A Good Friday Appeal to End the Death Penalty"'

Following this statement, the pope made a personal appeal to the govonor of Missouri to spare the life of Darrel Mease, who had been convicted of the drug-related murder of three people, and condemned to die. The governor heeded the popl's apeal by commuting the sentence to life in prison without parold.

None of us is completely innocent. Because all people sin, all people bring death into the world. The mercy the church calls for society to show its most iolent criminals reflects the generous mercy that God constantly shows each of us."

[LIVING JUSTICE AND PEACE Catholic social teachong in practice; Saint Mary's Press Christian Brothers Pubications Winona, Minnesota www.smp.org.

page 124

Imprimatur :

Most Rev. Bernard J. Harrington, DD

Bishop of Winona

7 March 2002]

So, i'd say that if the US were tryine him, which they probably arent because it should be his country who does it, then i'd say that we could easily afford not to have to resourt to the death penalty. However, i know nothing of the conditions of the prisons in Iraq, nor do i know the likelyhood of a jail break of some sort or of the possibility for him to still lead militants, or if his being alive would encourage those loyal to his cause to continue to persue the cause, or if killing him will make heim into some sort of martyr. But i can say that i feel the death penalty is wrong, and that unless there is reasonable doubt that imprisonment will not sufficiently protect society/the world from Saddam (in pertaining to a rational suspicion of Saddam would be able to continue to through in influential weight around in some effectual way) , then his right to life by virtue of human dignity should be respected. Perhaps hos fate decided in Iraq could be decided as letting him live, and another country could take into their hands the responsibilty of providing the imprisonment if somehow Iraq did not have the proper means to jail him safely.

So i'm asking, would such a case not mean that his right to life should be respected? And, have i cleared up my point about ones right to life? Or that nothing one can do can truely take away ones right to life?

ask any questions u like and comment on my findings as well if you so desire. Maybe im still wrong, lemme know if i left something out or if im using incorrect sources to back up my words, I don’t want to be making falst statements. Thanks, hope this helps

[-I---Love]

Make him suffer before he burns in hell.

Why shouldn't we say instead, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do."? If we even understood a sliver of the torture in Hell we would NEVER wish another human brother of ours to go to such a place.

[Apollo]

Why shouldn't we say instead, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do."? If we even understood a sliver of the torture in Hell we would NEVER wish another human brother of ours to go to such a place.

Amen.

Sadaam smells of elderberries.

He murdered many innocent people.

He was given life by God the Father.

Only God the Father should take it back.

[CICCIO]

Amen -I---Love

[Good Friday]

Bumped because this is a debate, and as such I thought maybe it should be in the Debate Table.

[foundsheep]

Bumped because this is a debate, and as such I thought maybe it should be in the Debate Table.

Az or Indeed can move it from here ,I cant.