Statistics about Religious Life

[HisChild]

I am sure you don't mean to be uncharitable with your statements about marriage, Photo, but those are some pretty radical statements you are making. I'm wondering what the reason behind them are.

There are plenty of studies out there that show that even Catholic marriages fail. Just because you have a prayerful Catholic marriage doesn't mean that you are guaranteed not to fail. Using absolutes rarely work.

I know of a few incredibly holy and prayerful marriages that didn't work out. So, yes, they do fail. (The only thing 'good' about it, is that they have a good prayer life to get them through those times. ) I actually know of a couple who are right now, going through a divorce. They go to Mass at our parish every week, pray the Rosary together, etc. They don't talk about why they're divorcing, but both are incredibly devout. So, it must be something pretty terrible.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that when you make a blanket statement like, if a couple is holy and devout they won't fail; that is not a100% no fail statement. And can you imagine the shame they'd feel reading your statement? That they would have a 100% chance of succeeding if they took their marriage seriously? Like they were somehow not favored by God or that they didn't take their marriage seriously. Believe me, I have seen the best of marriages crumble, and since you or I are not inside their relationship, seeing what's going on, we can't make those assumptions or condemnations.

BTW, lest you think I am permissive when it comes to divorce, I absolutely positively am against divorce, and the pandemic that it is today. However, there are times, that even in the most promising of circumstances, a key element is missing in the relationship, that wasn't seen during the courtship, that makes the marriage not work out. Our Holy Church in all her wisdom has seen that and that's why she allows for the ruling of an annulment. And yet, when that couple is there, with the priest, going to the marriage classes, etc. many times, neither they nor he can see anything that seems like an indicator of failure. There are lots of marriages that aren't taken seriously. I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the ones who DO take their vows as lifetime promises, who believe they are doing everything right, and still sometime down the road, something happens. . .I won't even mention examples. . .that just shatters things.

I hope that makes sense.

[be_thou_my_vision]

Also, another reason why consecrated people don't leave after taking vows is because they have like 7 years before taking final vows. That could also throw off some of the statistics because most candidates leave during the first few years.
Marriage doesn't really have a time like the postulancy or the novitiate like the religious life. I know dating is getting to know the person and discerning, but marriage is a lot different than dating.

[HisChild]

This is true, but when they talk about someone leaving, do they mean ONLY after vows?

Or any time, during novitiate and even after vows?

BTW, I think those stats could be a little skewed because what of the person who leaves religious life, only to enter another community? I know of one sister of life, for an example, who left to enter a cloister. I wonder if they take those into consideration.

[be_thou_my_vision]

I have no idea. That is why I am wondering if how everyone is interpreting the statistics is right.
I think more people leave the religious life than we think. I know of one community that has about 1/3 of the "entrance class" leave at some point. There are a lot of postulants that leave. I think the Nashville Dominicans have about a third leave after postulancy too. That's not bad or anything....just people discerning.

[HisChild]

that's why it would be good to see how those stats play out. Leaving as a postulant? You aren't technically a member of the community. Not until you receive the habit and your religious name do you ask if you can be admitted. As a postulant you ask to postulate or discern the community and promise to live by the rules and constitutions while you are there. So, I can't imagine that those stats would include the postulants.

[be_thou_my_vision]

Okay I was just saying it was a possibility. So basically, my point was that marriage has no postualncy, so people probably have a harder time with adjusting and that can cause problems leading to divorce.

[HisChild]

Yea, well, good marriages aside. . .those who behave themselves before marriage. ..I'm not talking about those. The others? Many live together, sleep together, 'try' out marriage beforehand. What's so funny, is that there are unbiased reports that state that those couples who do that are more likely to get a divorce. Which is sad if you think about it. . .many say they want to try out marriage before hand so that they won't be likely to get a divorce. Many people who are not Christians. . .say 'that little piece of paper changed everything'. And that somehow the marriage is what made the relationship different! As in, things were groovy during the live in, but then afterward, the spouses expected more of their spouse, due to the marriage. People are so mixed up sometimes!

What's so befuddling, is like for example, the couple i mentioned earlier? Didn't live together before marriage, both were virgins on their wedding night. . .and their marriage didn't last. Another couple in our church were THE wildest during college (many of my friends went to college with them), partying, weren't all that faithful to their Church, although they went to Mass each weekend. Now? They have 6 kids, another on the way, and are active in so many ministries in church. Just blows my mind to see grace working like that. It is an example of how you can't judge a marriage based on the beginning LOL

[be_thou_my_vision]

Ya that's crazy! It just goes to show you that God is in control of all of that and that people should have faith instead of trying to find it out by living with the other person. God works in mysterious ways!

[HisChild]

But when you are discerning don't you ever wish He'd just come and talk to you in a burning bush or something. . .make His will incredibly obvious so that there can be NO error? LOL I mean, I pretty much know what He's asking of me, but when I was discerning. I can't tell you how hard it was in the beginning! I almost made myself sick, until I just started praying furiously for Him to show me through my spiritual direction, etc.

[be_thou_my_vision]

Oh no I totally feel ya, I was like that for about 2 years, but now things have settled down, and I feel peace about one.

[HisChild]

Which one is that again? do I know this already? If so, I'm sorry.

[be_thou_my_vision]

Ummm, right now I feel great about marrying my boyfriend. I've prayed about it, doors have closed, and other doors have opened, and I have flown free! It's great. I do have a while before any definited decision is made, but as of right now, I feel incredible peace about marriage.

[dspen2005]

[quote name='the_rev' date='Feb 15 2006, 10:08 PM']Here's a statistic for you....
1 out of every two marriages ends in divorce.

One out of every ten consecrated leave their vocation.

you have a ninety percent chance of living a happeier life of celibacy for the sake of the kingdom.
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interesting... Fr Thomas Nelson, O. Praem mentions the same statistic in his talk on the myths of religious vocations

[HisChild]

I've heard this stat many times, actually.

I meant to tell you that earlier Eddy. :

Edited February 17, 2006 by PCPA2Be

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='PCPA2Be' date='Feb 16 2006, 09:29 PM']I know of a few incredibly holy and prayerful marriages that didn't work out.  So, yes, they do fail.  (The only thing 'good' about it, is that they have a good prayer life to get them through those times. )  I actually know of a couple who are right now, going through a divorce.  They go to Mass at our parish every week, pray the Rosary together, etc.  They don't talk about why they're divorcing, but both are incredibly devout.  So, it must be something pretty terrible.
[/quote]
Of course I'm not saying that there's a 100% success rate. But surely you cannot compare the success rate of holy Catholic marriages lived out in chasitty and centered in prayer, to the rest of marriages in society, which are often prone to unchasitty and unfaithfulness.

[quote name='PCPA2Be' date='Feb 16 2006, 09:29 PM']BTW, lest you think I am permissive when it comes to divorce, I absolutely positively am against divorce, and the pandemic that it is today.  However, there are times, that even in the most promising of circumstances, a key element is missing in the relationship, that wasn't seen during the courtship, that makes the marriage not work out.    Our Holy Church in all her wisdom has seen that and  that's why she allows for the ruling of an annulment.  And yet, when that couple is there, with the priest, going to the marriage classes, etc.  many times, neither they nor he can see anything that seems like an indicator of failure.  There are lots of marriages that aren't taken seriously.  I'm not talking about those.  I'm talking about the ones who DO take their vows as lifetime promises, who believe they are doing everything right, and still sometime down the road, something happens. . .I won't even mention examples. . .that just shatters things. 

I hope that makes sense.
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My parents divorced when I was 3. I never really knew my dad, and I believe my parents could have worked it out, regardless of what they have told me. I can't see why God would ordain a marriage, but not want it to continue due to incompatibility or something like that. I could see why such a problem would justify separation, but not the end of a marriage.

My parents divorced because of mental illness. Basically, they knew what they were getting into when they got married, my dad went crazy, and my mom said "I'm not dealing with this anymore, this guy is a danger to me and my child." But they both made a vow to stay together in sickness and in health. I don't think something like that should change just because things get a little difficult.

I thought annullment was for situations in which the couple was improperly prepared for the Sacrament of Marriage, or not fully consenting, not for things that happen after the fact.

Basically, I was arguing that marriages that are chaste and faithful to the teachings of the Church are no less successful than religious vocations, and that you can't compare a religious vocation to worldly marriage. Or, at least you won't find much in common.