What is your opinion on the teaching of EENS?

[Aloysius]

I think Semalsia is agnostic at best, if I recall correctly... certainly not Catholic

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 15 2006, 09:37 PM']It's unbelieveable to me, though, that someone picked that they thought all virtuous people except for the evil Trads go to heaven.
[right][snapback]888853[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Sometimes people vote for what they wish were true, not what they believe to be true. If you didn't think someone would vote for it, why did you put it on the poll?

Don't take it too seriously.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Sometimes people vote for what they wish were true, not what they believe to be true. If you didn't think someone would vote for it, why did you put it on the poll? [/quote]

I meant it as a joke.

[Aloysius]

word to the wise: joke options in polls are often voted for. just look up any poll on phatmass that contains an option for "tacos, so very tasty and good for you," :

people vote in jokes as well sometimes

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 15 2006, 10:02 PM']I meant it as a joke.
[right][snapback]888874[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Probably whoever voted that way did too.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Aloysius']there is no reason to be surprised that a non-Catholic picked there is no hell...[/quote]

If the catholic God doesn't exist, then Hell might not exist. But if the catholic God exists, then Hell definitely cannot.

That's my opinion anyway. As a non-Catholic.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]If the catholic God doesn't exist, then Hell might not exist. But if the catholic God exists, then Hell definitely cannot.

That's my opinion anyway. As a non-Catholic. [/quote]

Why do you think that the Trinity and the hell cannot both exist?

[Aloysius]

the Catholic God is a God of mercy for those who accept it, but wrath, vengence, and justice for those who do not. That is who the Catholic God is, He is not the lovey dovey cartoon charecter who accepts everyone into heaven out of niceness.

His love is a pure love that is not clouded by any emotion, rather it is guided by pure absolute reason and pure absolute justness.

not egalitarianism, not comparitive fairness or relative fairness, but absolutist justice.

the Catholic God has never been defined in any contradictory way, Divine Justice forges the pits of Hell. God chooses not to excercise his omnipotence on His creature's wills thus allowing them either to reject him and thus not be fulfilled as they were designed and be punished for their wrongdoings, or accept Him and be fulfilled as they were designed and forgiven their wrongdoings.

What you ought to have said is: "if the new age "nice" god really does exist, then there can be no hell"... with that, I will agree. that's why Paschal's wager still makes being Catholic better than being any religion in which the God is not wrathful or punishing.

[Semalsia]

[quote]Why do you think that the Trinity and the hell cannot both exist?[/quote]

Eternal punishment would be in contradiction to the Goodness. Even forgetting that infinitely merciful God would likely punish less than someone deserves, His own rule of "eye for an eye... etc" would make Him a monster in comparison. There is no way any finite crime could ever justify the use of infinite punishment. A being that would use such means would be the cruelest imaginable. And thus not the catholic God.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Aloysius']What you ought to have said is: "if the new age "nice" god really does exist, then there can be no hell"[/quote]

Well, if I have misunderstood the nature of the Catholic God and He is truly the cruelest being imaginable, then Hell can exist. And probably does.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Feb 15 2006, 09:41 PM']Eternal punishment would be in contradiction to the Goodness. [right][snapback]888914[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]No, it is because God is pure Good that there is a Hell. Something that is sin cannot be in the presence of pure Good. So God's ultimate and infinite "Goodness" only affirms the existence of Hell. Goodness is not synonymous with

[quote]Even forgetting that infinitely merciful God would likely punish less than someone deserves, His own rule of  "eye for an eye... etc" would make Him a monster in comparison. [/quote]YOu must understand the context of the lex talionis (Law of Talon/ Eye for an eye). People were killing someones brother over petty theft. People were enacting outrageous vengence for the smallest infractions, and so the Lex Talionis was put into place to start to curb that. Then you must remember that Christ fulfilled the Law when He said to forgive out neighbor.

[quote]There is no way any finite crime could ever justify the use of infinite punishment. A being that would use such means would be the cruelest imaginable. And thus not the catholic God.[/quote] We are not talking abuot a mere stealing a piece of candy from a shop, we are talking about mortal sin. The type of sin that is an offence against God or God's Law. Such acts are directly opposed to God and it is not so much that they are punished (which is also the case), but that through mortal sin they have effectively severed their relationship with God. The person, through sin, has rejected God and His grace and so has intentionally, or inadvertantly chosen Hell. I say inadvertantly not because the person accidently chooses Hell, but to point out that a person does not have to say "I choose Hell." The person inadvertently does this by rejecting God which has the natural consequence of damnation.

Also do not forget that we do not merit heaven, it is a gift. We as humans sin and so God's grace is a gift.

[Semalsia]

Do you think that it's possible there's a moment after death when if you repent, you would be forgiven?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Feb 15 2006, 10:18 PM']Do you think that it's possible there's a moment after death when if you repent, you would be forgiven?
[right][snapback]888938[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
No. I am sorry but we do not believe that one can be forgiven after death. A lot of Protestants have that misconception about the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Purgatory is a cleansing and purging process, not a forgiving process. Purgatory presupposes salvation and is a preperation for heaven. Romans will help with this, specifically Romans 2:14ff

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Amator Veritatis' date='Feb 15 2006, 07:05 PM']There seem to be a lot of interesting points made here. I am curious about one of these points in particular. One of the Schemas presented to the Council Fathers of the First Vatican Council concerning the Church of Christ was cited. I have been unable to find this in the actual documents of the Council. Was this Schema rejected by the Council Fathers? Thanks.
[right][snapback]888747[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

You have Don John Bosco as your avatar! : My best friend's dog is named after him!

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 15 2006, 09:10 PM']I was going tosay for option A. "Only those who are in the Chuch by one of the three Baptisms" but I decided that was self-explanitory. Also, some modernists take Baptism of Desire out of proportion, and I believe it is only guarenteed to catechumans, though some MAY be able to recieve it, but that is not for sure.
[right][snapback]888817[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I do believe that valid Baptisms by water have been acknowledged, even those of heretics, by an earlier council.

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 15 2006, 09:11 PM']I can't believe someone believes that hell does not exist, all virtuous people except Trads go to heaven, and all virtuous people go to heaven!
[right][snapback]888821[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

There are many non-Catholics, as Al said, that are here. I think that should explain that.

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Feb 15 2006, 10:41 PM']Eternal punishment would be in contradiction to the Goodness. Even forgetting that infinitely merciful God would likely punish less than someone deserves, His own rule of  "eye for an eye... etc" would make Him a monster in comparison. There is no way any finite crime could ever justify the use of infinite punishment. A being that would use such means would be the cruelest imaginable. And thus not the catholic God.
[right][snapback]888914[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I have an article for you I wrote for my school paper.

I started writing these with the intention of addressing Limbo, especially now that there is talk of striking it from the books completely in the Catholic Church. But I think that to speak of Limbo, we must first address both the land of the blessed and the land of the damned. Last time I touched on Purgatory to show the end of those men who die in the state of grace with the stain of sin still on their soul, the men about to enter into the Beatific Vision.
Hell is the second place I wish to discuss. It is the place for those men who die in the state of mortal sin, a condition brought upon them by their own actions. As I mentioned before, Our Lord works with us in salvation, giving us the choice whether to spend the end of our life with Him or separated from Him. When we die, we have already made the choice where we want to spend eternity and there is no turning back.
Living in Texas, I often hear analogies made between Texas’ heat and Hell’s fire; however, I think these are inaccurate. We are very fortunate here at UD to read such wonderful literature as Dante’s Divine Comedy, which has many lessons to offer us. Just as Dante encounters a level of fire and intense heat, he also runs into the land of the ice and cold. St. Alphonsus Ligouri says that the souls in Hell pass from extreme heat to bitter cold and back again, without relief. He draws on the passage in Job that says, “Let him pass from the snow waters to excessive heat, and his sin even to hell” (DRB Job 24:19). This is an even more intense pain than a constant heat. This means, for us in the middle of the South, that the weather in Texas is not analogous to Hell’s temperatures because we rarely see cold!
Knowing the fate of the Baptized souls not in sin and those souls that have died in the state of mortal sin raises the question of what happens to the un-Baptized souls that die before they can enter in to the Church, but not to any fault of their own. It seems unfair that they should be made to endure Hell’s torments, but according to the Church no one may go to Heaven without Baptism…

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 15 2006, 11:22 PM']No. I am sorry but we do not believe that one can be forgiven after death. A lot of Protestants have that misconception about the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Purgatory is a cleansing and purging process, not a forgiving process. Purgatory presupposes salvation and is a preperation for heaven. Romans will help with this, specifically Romans 2:14ff
[right][snapback]888940[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I think I might post another article on this.

Recently in the news, there have been many rumours of the Vatican striking Limbo from books completely. What surprised me more than this was that many Catholics started praising this turn of events as a wonderful blessing. I honestly could not figure out what was so repulsive about Limbo and so I did some research. It may be that most of the people I hang out with were influenced by Dante’s Inferno, in which Limbo is the first level of Hell, but I’m not sure why most everyone considers Limbo a place of great torment.
This last week, as I sat procrastinating late one night, one of my roommates came in asking me about the practice of selling indulgences. Of course, this being UD, there is no such thing as a simple question and a simple answer. This naturally progressed into a discussion on the nature of Purgatory, which truly is the only likely outcome in a conversation between two people who have both read Dante’s Purgatorio. I figure that to understand Limbo, Purgatory might actually be a good place to begin especially since many people misunderstand them and want to deny both due to their implications.
The more he and I talked, the more I got the impression that for him (as well as most people I know) Purgatory is a place where God must send us to undergo purification before we enter into the Beatific Vision. Now of course I do not deny this fact, but I do think there can be much more said about it.
When looking at Purgatory, I have a very close analogy that I like to use. A few years back one of my friends ran into the back of my car. To me it wasn’t much of a big deal, and I didn’t care at all, but she felt terrible about the whole incident and the tiny dent she left. I of course didn’t make her pay for it, but each time she saw me over the next month, she was reminded of this minor bump. To her it was more painful to be in my presence than had she paid for it.
St. Catherine of Genoa says the same thing about Heaven. For us, who offend God, it would be too painful to be in His awesome presence without knowing that we had done something to atone for our sins. Heaven for us would almost be as another Hell without this chance to repay some of the debt we owe. The sinner, according to St. Catherine, chooses purification in Purgatory freely so that he may encounter the Lord in His full glory. Because we participate in salvation rather than have it forced upon us, the Father gives us this wonderful and merciful chance to participate in the punishment for our sins.