Resurrexi Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 I know I gave some ridiculous options, but that was just for fun. I personally believe something between A and B, leaning more to the A side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 no non-Catholic enters heaven. one must be a member of the Church in some capacity, for it is the only channel of grace Christ instituted to save humanity. if someone does not have the mortal sin of rejecting the Church because of inculpable ignorance, then in an imperfect manner they can be members of the Church through ways known to God alone. such a thing can never be presumed, but it is a possibility. of course, they enter heaven as a Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 I don't have an opinion on this, I accept and assent my will to this teaching: [quote name='CCC #846']How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[/quote] [i]Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21:PL 3,1169; De unit.:PL 4,509-536 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Yep, the CCC teaches in continuity with the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Sallus, and the magisterium does what it has always done: build upon existing irreformable dogma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 [quote][u]Pope Bl. Pius IX:[/u] We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life. For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment. [i]On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, no. 7)[/i] It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. [i]On the Church in Austria (Singulari Quidam, no. 7)[/i] [/quote] [quote][u]Pope Pius XII:[/u] As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly.[194] Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ"[195] and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love.[197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home. [i](Mystici Corporis Christi, no. 103)[/i]. Footnotes: 194. Cf. Encyclical Letter, Summi Pontificatus: A.A.S., 1939, p. 419. 195. Iren., Adv. Haer., IV, 33, 7: Migne, P.G., VII, 1076. 196. Cf. Pius IX, Iam Vos Omnes, 13 Sept. 1868: Act. Conc. Vat., C.L.VII, 10. 197. Cf. Gelas. I, Epist., XIV: Migne, P.L. LIX, 89.[/quote] [quote][u]Vatican I: Schema on the Church of Christ[/u] "Furthermore, it is a dogma of faith that no one can be saved outside the Church. Nevertheless, those who are invincibly ignorant of Christ and the Church are not to be judged worthy of eternal punishment because of this ignorance. For they are innocent in the eyes of the Lord of any fault in this matter. God wishes all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth; and if one does what he can, God does not withhold the grace for him to obtain eternal life. But no one obtains eternal life if he dies separated from the unity of faith or from communion with the Church through his own fault." [i](Schema on the Church of Christ: Chapter 7, presented to the Fathers of the Council on April 24, 1870).[/i][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 I did not vote in this poll because I did not like the way the options were worded. The Church teaches that all must belong to the Church to be saved, but also teaches that some may belong to the Church through such things as "baptism of blood" and "baptism of desire." Exactly which individuals are saved in this way, and exactly who qualifies as "invincibly ignorant" is God's to judge, not ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 The options should be worded in such a way as to make a distinction between being in visible unity with the Catholic Church or not. As has been pointed out above, no "Non-Catholic" can enter heaven, because "Non-Catholic" properly understood designates a person who is not united to the Catholic Church. However, someone who may not be in [i]visible[/i] unity with the Church may still be united to the Mystical Body of Christ that is the Catholic Church, and this unity is sufficient for salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amator Veritatis Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 There seem to be a lot of interesting points made here. I am curious about one of these points in particular. One of the Schemas presented to the Council Fathers of the First Vatican Council concerning the Church of Christ was cited. I have been unable to find this in the actual documents of the Council. Was this Schema rejected by the Council Fathers? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 15 2006, 05:34 PM']I don't have an opinion on this, I accept and assent my will to this teaching: [quote name='CCC #846']How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[/quote] [i]Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21:PL 3,1169; De unit.:PL 4,509-536 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.[/i] [right][snapback]888633[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 16, 2006 Author Share Posted February 16, 2006 [quote]The options should be worded in such a way as to make a distinction between being in visible unity with the Catholic Church or not.[/quote] I was going tosay for option A. "Only those who are in the Chuch by one of the three Baptisms" but I decided that was self-explanitory. Also, some modernists take Baptism of Desire out of proportion, and I believe it is only guarenteed to catechumans, though some MAY be able to recieve it, but that is not for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 16, 2006 Author Share Posted February 16, 2006 I can't believe someone believes that hell does not exist, all virtuous people except Trads go to heaven, and all virtuous people go to heaven! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 (edited) [quote name='StThomasMore']I can't believe someone believes that hell does not exist,[/quote] Um, that was me. I voted for G. [quote] all virtuous people go to heaven! [/quote] For me it is inconceivable to think that in a just world people who have never in their lives caused harm to anyone else might end up in eternal suffering. By the way, what is EENS? Edited February 16, 2006 by Semalsia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 [quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 15 2006, 06:44 PM']I did not vote in this poll because I did not like the way the options were worded. [right][snapback]888733[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Feb 15 2006, 06:57 PM']The options should be worded in such a way as to make a distinction between being in visible unity with the Catholic Church or not. [right][snapback]888733[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Sallus, meaning outside of the Church there is no salvation StThomasMore, there are a number of non-Catholics that frequent phatmass... there is no reason to be surprised that a non-Catholic picked there is no hell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 16, 2006 Author Share Posted February 16, 2006 (edited) [quote]By the way, what is EENS?[/quote] Extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Outside the Church there is no salvation. [quote]Um, that was me. I voted for G. [/quote] I believe that it would be heresy to say that hell did not exist. Have you not read the words of Christ from the gospels? Our God speaks of hell numerous times. [quote]For me it is inconceivable to think that in a just world people who have never in their lives caused harm to anyone else might end up in eternal suffering.[/quote] Please dont give me that modernist "all virtuous people get a baptism of desire" junk. It's unbelieveable to me, though, that someone picked that they thought all virtuous people except for the evil Trads go to heaven. Edited February 16, 2006 by StThomasMore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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