Which Mass do you hear?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='thedude' date='Feb 14 2006, 03:59 PM']Anyone know of a website with a list of Dominican Rite masses?  I'd love to check one out.
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I actually thought they had suspended them myself. Much to my surprise otherwise!

[Resurrexi]

[QUOTE]Careful to use Latin to argue and not English. The English is terrible! [/QUOTE]

I could have quoted the concecration in Latin, but then I would have needed to get out my missal...

now about the two Canons compared:

The actions of the priest are different. He does not cross the species nearly as many times. If I recall, in the NO he crosses them once, and in the TLM he crosses them more than 40 times. Also, there are many things that are in parenthesies which are optional. Nothing is optional in the Traditional Canon.

[QUOTE]Per [b]eundem[/b] Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.[/QUOTE]

compare that to.

[QUOTE]Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.)[/QUOTE]

You see, they took out "eundem"


[QUOTE]nobis Corpus et Sanguis fiat [b]dilectissimi [/b]Filii tui, Domini nostri Iesu Christi.
[b](Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.[/b])[/QUOTE]

P. Quam oblationem tu, Deus, in omnibus, quaesumus, benedictam, adscriptam, ratam, rationabilem, acceptabilemque facere digneris,. ut nobis Corpus, et Sanguis [b]fiatdilectissimi [/b]Filii tui Domini nostri Jesu Christi.
The Consecration

they changed dilectissimi to fiatdilectissimi and they added an optional "Per Christum Dominum Nostrum. Amen."



[QUOTE]HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM, QUOD PRO VOBIS TRADETUR[/QUOTE]

compare that to

[QUOTE]HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM.[/QUOTE]

they took added "Quod Pro..." and in the English NO they dont say the "Hoc/For" in "For this is my body/ Hoc Est Enim Corpus Meum"


[QUOTE]HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI, QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM
Hoc facite in meam commemorationem.
Mysterium fidei.
A. Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.
[/QUOTE]

compared to

[QUOTE]HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI:
MYSTERIUM FIDEI:
QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM.
Haec quotiescumque feceritis, in mei memoriam facietis.
[/QUOTE]

so many differences that its unbelievable. And the Enliglish NO often has bad translations that take away the orthodoxy of the Latin NO


[QUOTE]Memento etiam, Domine, famulorum famularumque tuarum N. et N. qui nos praecesserunt cum signo fidei, et dormiunt in somno pacis.
Ipsis, domine, et omnibus in Christo quiescentibus, locum refrigerii, lucis et pacis, ut indulgeas, deprecamur.
(Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.)[/QUOTE]

that is alot different than this:

[QUOTE]Memento etiam, Domine, famulorum famularumque tuarum N. et N. qui nos praecesserunt cum signo fidei, et dormiunt in somno pacis. Ipsis, Domine, et omnibus in Christo quiescentibus, locum refrigerii, lucis et pacis, utindulgeas, deprecamur. Per eumdem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.[/QUOTE]

Acutally, I think its mostly out of order, but that's still not good.


[QUOTE]Per ipsum, et cum ipso, et in ipso, est tibi Deo Patri omnipotenti, in unitate Spiritus Sancti, omnis honor et gloria per omnia saecula saeculorum.
Amen.[/QUOTE]

compare

[QUOTE]est tibi Deo Patri omnipotenti,
in unitate Spiritus Sancti,
omnis honor et gloria,
per omnia saecula saeculorum.
S. AMEN![/QUOTE]

I would say they are different.

This was just comparing the new Canon (1st Eucharistic Prayer) to the Old Roman Canon. There are many other differences in both the Mass of the Catechumans/ Liturgy of the Word and the Mass of the Faithful/Liturgy of the Eucharist.


here are some things I am responding to.

[QUOTE]can you elaborate?

can someone explain what the differences are between all these eucharistic prayers?

it's great to obey the Pope.
[/QUOTE]

The Ad Orientam altar is more beautiful than the NO altar

the 1st Eucharistic Prayer is alot like the Roman Canon, thought not exactly the same. The other two are shortened greatly cutting out important prayers.

I do not see how attending the TLM is not obeying the Pope.

[QUOTE]I prefer the Catholic Mass myself [/QUOTE]

If you are saying that you attend the TLM, then I suggest that you shoud know that a properly said NO Mass in Latin; Ad Orientam is very good and Catholic, as is any NO Mass said exactly as the missal says.

If you are saying that you attend the NO, then you should know that the TLM was celebrated for centuries and is much more beautiful, and really Catholic.

[QUOTE]Yes, but in clarification, I don't think it's required for anyone to say the responses. [/QUOTE]

very true!

[QUOTE]The Tridentine Mass is superior in the sense that it is a clearer presentation of Catholic dogma and is aesthetically more pleasing. [/QUOTE]

hey, IQ, you've come to Phatmass I see. Anyways though, I want to say "YES!" to this statement.

[QUOTE]A novus ordo when done wrong is awful, and it shouldn't happen[/QUOTE]

yep.

[QUOTE] a novus ordo when done right is just as beautiful.[/QUOTE]

I dont agree.

[QUOTE]I don't hear Mass, I pray it. It's not felicitous to use language like this, since it makes the faithful look like passive observers when they are supposed to be participating in an active way in prayer. [/QUOTE]

I said before, you can pray the Mass without saying the Mass, and you can pray the Mass while hearing it. To pray the Mass means to watch the Sacrifice and direct our thoughts to God and to adore Christ in the Host.

[QUOTE]Honestly, little Tommy doesn't understand what he is talking about. He is only 12 years old. Someone is feeding him this and I would assume that it is the group over at fisheaters. If it isn't that group then it is someone else.[/QUOTE]

No-one is feeding me this, I choose to believe it myself. And DONT CALL ME TOMMY!

[QUOTE]What I would suggest and I will take it to heart from here (right you two...) is to simply dismiss him as a 12 year old and to remember that he can't possibly know what he is talking about. He doesn't have a working understanding of anything. He doesn't have a legitimate argument on any topic that he has posted.[/QUOTE]

I admit I am 12, I swear that I will be 12 till next July. You cant say to dismiss me as a 12 year old though. You know nothing about me or about my intellect or knowledge. I know more than common sense and what they teach me at school. I HAVE A WORKING UNDERSTANDING ON MANY THINGS! I do have a legitimate arguement on most topics, but I research alot and cannot possibly give a direct quote supporting everything I say. You are very being very uncharitable and very rude to me!

[QUOTE]Most of the "objections" that he raises are canned anyways. They are not even original.[/QUOTE]

They should not be canned, and no arguement is original.

[QUOTE]If he is lying about being 12 so be it, but until he is honest about that, I think that we can simply rustle his hair, pinch his cheeks and tell him to go sit in the breakfast nook with all the other kids until he is confirmed.[/QUOTE]

I plan on getting confirmed in the near future, weather I am confirmed by my bishop, or the bishop of some diocese which is kinder to its adherants of the Traditional Sacraments. And dont tell me what to do.

[QUOTE]At this point, I am so sick of arguing with this child about things that he doesn't understand, I can hardly stand it.[/QUOTE]

I understand more than my parents on most of these subjects so please dont say I don't understand. Its your decision weather you argue with me or not, and if you cant stand it, pretend like I dont exihist.

[QUOTE]So little Tommy, when you grow up, come back and discuss this stuff with us. Until then, respect your elders, respect the Roman Catholic Church as it is. And if you don't, I would suggest that you find the nearest priest and go to Confession. You need to learn what spiritual direction is. And you need to start. That one can never do too early.[/QUOTE]

I will do what I choose, and I choose to discuss this with you now. I try to respect my elders and I do respect the Catholic Church. Go to Confession at least every two weeks, and I do not see that I have said anything sinful. I already know what a spiritual director is.

[QUOTE]Perhaps when you are 18 or 19 you'll be mature enough to discuss this stuff rationally. Until you stop acting like a 12 year old and start acting like an adult, I will simply dismiss you as being a child.[/QUOTE]

I do act more like an adult than most children. I really think you are being very uncharitable.

[QUOTE]So, run along and play little fella, run along.....and stay out of the adults hair. Otherwise I will make hot stuff take your gameboy away again. He's the big meanie around here anyway. That much is perfectly clear. [/QUOTE]

make me run along. I refuse to "stay out of your hair". Just so you know, video games are dumb and a waste of time.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Feb 14 2006, 05:25 PM']I actually thought they had suspended them myself.  Much to my surprise otherwise!
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I think my brother went to one a while back... Something is going on here.

[qfnol31]

[quote]I could have quoted the concecration in Latin, but then I would have needed to get out my missal...[/quote]

The only difference between the two is actually Mysterium Fidei and it's place.

now about the two Canons compared:

[quote]The actions of the priest are different. He does not cross the species nearly as many times. If I recall, in the NO he crosses them once, and in the TLM he crosses them more than 40 times. Also, there are many things that are in parenthesies which are optional. Nothing is optional in the Traditional Canon.[/quote]

That is true, but most Priests I know use them anyways.

As for crossing the host and wine and Sacred Species, this isn't strictly necessary for anything (thought it is of sorts a blessing) and so, though valid, doesn't actually change the Canon itself.

[quote]"Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen."

compare that to.

"Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.)"

You see, they took out "eundem"[/quote]

This will sound bad, but I'm not positive they did. (The site, as I'll show in a minute, has some typos.)

Anyways, in response to the difference of words, eundem means "Himself" or the same Him...it's only an intensifier here and so doesn't change the meaning in or out.

[quote]"nobis Corpus et Sanguis fiat dilectissimi Filii tui, Domini nostri Iesu Christi.
(Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.)"

"P. Quam oblationem tu, Deus, in omnibus, quaesumus, benedictam, adscriptam, ratam, rationabilem, acceptabilemque facere digneris,. ut nobis Corpus, et Sanguis fiatdilectissimi Filii tui Domini nostri Jesu Christi.
The Consecration
"
they changed dilectissimi to fiatdilectissimi and they added an optional "Per Christum Dominum Nostrum. Amen."[/quote]

That is a typo...if you look back, fiat was there, but it got run together in this one because, as I said, of typos. I'm serious about that because I fixed some of them before I posted.

As for the optional part, it is still optional.

[quote][quote]HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM, QUOD PRO VOBIS TRADETUR[/quote]

compare that to

[quote]HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM.[/quote]

they took added "Quod Pro..." and in the English NO they dont say the "Hoc/For" in "For this is my body/ Hoc Est Enim Corpus Meum"[/quote]

Again, we can't really discuss the English, but I think this is my mistake by not finishing it (I had to correct this part as it was erroneous on the website since it wasn't in CAPS, which it is in the Roman Missal itself).

[quote][quote]HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI, QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM
Hoc facite in meam commemorationem.
Mysterium fidei.
A. Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.
[/quote]

compared to

[quote]HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI:
MYSTERIUM FIDEI:
QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM.
Haec quotiescumque feceritis, in mei memoriam facietis.
[/quote]

so many differences that its unbelievable. And the Enliglish NO often has bad translations that take away the orthodoxy of the Latin NO[/quote]

Only difference there is the "Mysterium Fidei" and the response.

Again, I limit this to Latin because the Novus Ordo is in Latin and to compare the English to the Tridentine is to fall into the same trap that most modern (American/English) Catholics do...namely that it should be in the vernacular (something with which I disagree).

[qfnol31]

[quote][quote]Memento etiam, Domine, famulorum famularumque tuarum N. et N. qui nos praecesserunt cum signo fidei, et dormiunt in somno pacis.
Ipsis, domine, et omnibus in Christo quiescentibus, locum refrigerii, lucis et pacis, ut indulgeas, deprecamur.
(Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.)[/quote]

that is alot different than this:

[quote]Memento etiam, Domine, famulorum famularumque tuarum N. et N. qui nos praecesserunt cum signo fidei, et dormiunt in somno pacis. Ipsis, Domine, et omnibus in Christo quiescentibus, locum refrigerii, lucis et pacis, utindulgeas, deprecamur. Per eumdem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.[/quote]

Acutally, I think its mostly out of order, but that's still not good.[/quote]

Again, I'll put this up to error, but it might be my own. Part of the problem you're finding between these two is how they did the English translation...one did it underneath and one did it to the right. I edited it and in the Novus Ordo I didn't take out the spaces between the paragraphs...that is one reason why you see so many incongruities where they're actually exactly the same.

[quote][quote]Per ipsum, et cum ipso, et in ipso, est tibi Deo Patri omnipotenti, in unitate Spiritus Sancti, omnis honor et gloria per omnia saecula saeculorum.
Amen.[/quote]

compare

[quote]est tibi Deo Patri omnipotenti,
in unitate Spiritus Sancti,
omnis honor et gloria,
per omnia saecula saeculorum.
S. AMEN![/quote]
I would say they are different.
[/quote]

Try looking at the second without spaces...they're the same I think.

This was just comparing the new Canon (1st Eucharistic Prayer) to the Old Roman Canon. There are many other differences in both the Mass of the Catechumans/ Liturgy of the Word and the Mass of the Faithful/Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Oh, that's true all right! I was just responding to something you said on the Canon.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 14 2006, 05:28 PM']Just so you know, video games are dumb and a waste of time.
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I believe you are mistaken. Video games, when played often, make one smarter.

[Cam42]

[quote]No-one is feeding me this, I choose to believe it myself. And DONT CALL ME TOMMY![/quote]

Ok, Tommy. I won't call you Tommy anymore......and since we are starting with the don'ts, don't call me liberal.

[quote]I admit I am 12, I swear that I will be 12 till next July. You cant say to dismiss me as a 12 year old though. You know nothing about me or about my intellect or knowledge. I know more than common sense and what they teach me at school. I HAVE A WORKING UNDERSTANDING ON MANY THINGS! I do have a legitimate arguement on most topics, but I research alot and cannot possibly give a direct quote supporting everything I say. You are very being very uncharitable and very rude to me![/quote]

Yep. And you are being very rude to many people on the board, including me. I would suggest that you simply sit back and try to learn, rather than spouting off about how wrong we are all the time.

Really? You have a working knowledge, of what, Kool-Aid? Add sugar, it tastes better that way. Seriously, though, I would love to get your perspective on the filioque controversy. Should we come to a greater understanding of just how this phrase is applied and understood? Also, I would like to get your take on the impending liturgical changes? Do you think that the new translations will prove to be fruitful? (I'd like a scholarly and applied answer to that one, please) I was also wondering, since there doesn't seem to be a universal indult coming anytime soon, should the US bishops call for an ammendment to extend the current regulations or should they leave it up to the individual Ordinary to decide? Finally, what do you think of Romano Guardini's work on the Liturgy? I know that it is written in French and the translation is a little sketchy in places, but it is easy enough to get through. These are some of the things that I am currently pondering and studying? Oh yeah, have you had a chance to get your head around Adian Nichols' book [u]Looking at the Liturgy[/u]? It is one of the most provocative works on the Liturgy out there. For someone "in the know" such as yourself, you should have read through this little work several times. I am especially curious what did you think of the idea that Pius Parsch, an Augustinian canon and his application and call for [i]versus populum[/i] almost 50 years before Vatican Council II?

Just a couple of small things that I am working on....perhaps you can apply your "working knowledge" and give me some quick insight into these minor liturgical issues.....which are very current, incidentally.

Perhaps, you could start by indulging my questions that I have above. I am curious as to what your take is. Thanks.....I await with baited breath.

[qfnol31]

Are you gonna let him be a kid or make him grow up in a day?

You sure seem to expect a lot out of someone that you constantly remind is very young.

[Cam42]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Feb 14 2006, 10:26 PM']Are you gonna let him be a kid or make him grow up in a day?

You sure seem to expect a lot out of someone that you constantly remind is very young.
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He said that he had a working knowledge.......just exploring that knowledge.

I am just expecting a response from someone who claims to know what he is talking about OR I could be proving a point. Ever think of that?

Incidentally, you aren't exactly having a 6th grade conversation with him either, Zach.

[qfnol31]

I don't expect scholarly answers though.

[Cam42]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Feb 14 2006, 10:43 PM']I don't expect scholarly answers though.  (edit smiley)
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To be honest, neither do I......

Perhaps I am being a bit facetious.....

Perhaps I am jibbing StTommyMore a bit.....

Perhaps if he sticks his foot in his mouth enough, he will learn to......ummm, nevermind......

[Era Might]

[quote]You know nothing about me or about my intellect or knowledge. I know more than common sense and what they teach me at school.[/quote]

I've been a twelve year old.

All kidding aside, what you don't know could fill a book.

[jezic]

Cam i think you are being a bit rough on the guy.

Remember how highly Jesus thought of Children.

I would also remind StThomas that Jesus also talked about respect for elders and turning the other cheeck.

The people in this thread could do a lot of Christian charity and good penance and save souls instead of getting annoyed.

We should try to go closer to the truth together. Not whack the other person so that we are closer than them.

[morostheos]

[quote name='jezic' date='Feb 14 2006, 11:31 PM']Cam i think you are being a bit rough on the guy.

Remember how highly Jesus thought of Children.

I would also remind StThomas that Jesus also talked about respect for elders and turning the other cheeck.

The people in this thread could do a lot of Christian charity and good penance and save souls instead of getting annoyed.

We should try to go closer to the truth together. Not whack the other person so that we are closer than them.
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[Cam42]

[quote name='jezic' date='Feb 14 2006, 11:31 PM']Cam i think you are being a bit rough on the guy.

Remember how highly Jesus thought of Children.

I would also remind StThomas that Jesus also talked about respect for elders and turning the other cheeck.

The people in this thread could do a lot of Christian charity and good penance and save souls instead of getting annoyed.

We should try to go closer to the truth together. Not whack the other person so that we are closer than them.
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I may be acting a little rough, but tough love is not always out of the question. You don't have to remind me of how highly Jesus thought of children, however, I don't think that the children were being impetuous, do you?

At some point, being badgered is going to get some retaliation. So, here it is. It is time for StTommyMore to put up or shut up. He made his bed, so now I am asking him to lie in it. He said that he had a "working knowledge" so I am asking him to expound upon it. There is nothing uncharitable about expecting him to share his "working knowledge" is there?

And as far as whacking someone, what good is the Bible/Catechism (2nd Edtition) good for, if not to whack it over someone's head every so often? I've heard that osmosis is closely related to homoousious, so it can't be a bad thing, right???????