Colin and Baptism.

[Colin]

Hi there,
concerning the household baptisms of Acts, two things need to be noted, firstly, apostolic practice must agree with apostolic teaching, and secondly, in almost every case, Acts specifically notes that the people involved were first preached to, second believed, and only then were baptized. That is, apostolic practice does conform to apostolic teaching. All who heard and believed were baptized. Babies are not the subject of these verses. Jesus baptized adults, he did not baptize children. He blessed them, he cared about them, but he did not baptize them. Neither did the apostles.

In Acts 2:41; “they that gladly received his message were baptized”
In Acts 8:12; “but when they (“the people”- verse 8) believed Philip preaching,… they were baptized.”

In Acts 10, Peter preaches, they hear the word “everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name (10:43)” and then the Holy Spirit falls on them, and only after that are they are baptized. They are baptized because Peter realizes that they have already been saved/converted (10:47, Ephesians 1:13 – “In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”). Note also 11:14, “he will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved”. As Romans 10 says, “’everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved’ how then can they call on the one they have not believed in? and how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? and how can they hear without someone preaching to them?” Peter preaches the message through which they shall be saved, the Holy Spirit falls, showing they have repented and believed (11:17), then they (“all your household”) are baptized. Baptism follows salvation, it is not the means of it.

In Acts 16 Paul likewise preaches to “him and all the others in his house” and then they are all baptized, and the jailer is filled with joy because “he and his whole family” had “come to believe in God”. Again, as his whole household are said to have listened to Paul, believed in God, and then been baptized. Babies are not the subject here.
In Acts 18, “Crispus and his entire household believed in the Lord (verse 8)”, and in verse 9, “many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.”
So Crispus and his household heard the message Paul preached, believed, and only then were baptized. If we go to 1 Corinthians, Paul is glad he didn’t baptize more Corinthians, but rather preached the Gospel to them. Now, if baptism were essential to salvation, why would he be glad he had not baptized them? But as Paul declares, “the preaching of the Cross (not baptism) is the power of God”. 1 Corinthians 16:15 furthermore notes that the “household” of Stephanas have “appointed themselves to the ministry of the saints.” Now, if “household” includes babies, were day-old babies ministering to the saints? Those who heard the message and believed the message were saved and baptized, and ministered to the needs of the saints. Again, babies clearly are not the focus here.

The apostolic practice confirms the apostolic teaching. To be saved, you need hear and believe the message of salvation. The New Testament knows no other way to be saved.
God bless, Colin

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Colin' date='Feb 16 2006, 03:52 AM']The apostolic practice confirms the apostolic teaching. [b]To be saved, you need hear and believe the message of salvation[/b]. The New Testament knows no other way to be saved.
God bless, Colin
[right][snapback]889043[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]I only have a few moments to respond. I will print this off and take it with me to respond to later, but I still would like an answer to this question: What do you think happens to unbaptized babies? From the sound of it, you believe they go to Hell.

[Paphnutius]

[quote] Now, if baptism were essential to salvation, why would he be glad he had not baptized them? But as Paul declares, “the preaching of the Cross (not baptism) is the power of God”.[/quote]Let us work on the big things first and then the rest will soon click. You believe that Baptism is not necessary for salvation. That is directly contrary to what we are told in John 3:5 [list]3:5. Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God
[/list] What else is being born of water and the Spirit than the sacrament of Baptism? I am sorry, but what you said is unbiblical. Our Lord Himself declared the necessity of Baptism in this passage as also in Matthew 28:[list]28:19. Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
[/list]He commanded the Apostles to go and teach and baptize. This is Christ we are speaking about giving His apostles a direct command. Here our Lord is emphasizing the necessity of Baptism by commanding His very own apostles to baptize the nations. Why would He command them this [i]as part of their mission of being sent[/i] if it were not necessary?

Moreover, as we are told in Romans,[list]5:15. But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died: much more the grace of God and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[/list] and in Corinthians [list]15:21. For by a man came death: and by a man the resurrection of the dead.15:22. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
[/list] because Adam sinned, we are marked for death. Why is this? Because of Original Sin. All are born with Original Sin because we are all descendants from Adam. We all suffer the inclination to sin, and the physical consequences. Even while the tiny infant has committed no personal sin, he still has the stain of Original Sin because of the first sin of Adam and Eve. It was through one that all were condemned, and so it is through One that all are saved. So we see that there is a need for cleansing due to sin, I think we can all agree on that much, but why Baptism?

This is because we are told that Baptism has the power by the grace of God to cleanse us from sin. Let us look at Acts:[list]22:16. And now why tarriest thou? Rise up and be baptized and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.
[/list] In Baptism we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In Christ's name. It is this invoking of Christ, this calling upon His grace that makes Baptism effective and able to wash away sins. Here again we see how sacramental the Bible is. We have Baptism with water (the matter of the sacrament) and the calling of Christ's name (the form). This shows us that Baptism does convey objective grace for it takes away sins. Moreover in Corinthians, [list]6:11. And such some of you were. But you are washed: but you are sanctified: but you are justified: in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God.
[/list]We are washed and sanctified, and justified. We are washed in Baptism, that is the sacrament, and thus we are justified because of the conveying of grace. And so here in no uncertain terms we are told how Baptism has the power to convery the grace of Christ. It is quite necessary for salvation as Christ said in John and told His apostles to do. Just incase we missed something; 1 Peter[list]3:21. [b]Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also[/b]: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.*
[/list]Here Peter tells us that Baptism saves us. Is it because it is a mere ritual that we only go through the motions? Not in the least! It is because it is a covenant, a sacrament that Christ has chosen to pour out His love and Grace into us. It is because at Baptism we die with Christ and rise with Him. Baptism is necessary and it saves as we are told by Jesus the Christ, St. Paul, and St. Peter.

I believe that is suffecient for now. I will now discuss your comment about Corinthians.
[quote]If we go to 1 Corinthians, Paul is glad he didn’t baptize more Corinthians, but rather preached the Gospel to them.[/quote] Since you did not give me a citation I presume that you are reffering to [list]1:16. And I baptized also the household of Stephanus. Besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 1:17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.
[/list]This can be perplexing especially since we just read about how Christ commanded His apostles to go out and baptize the nations, but I assure you that if we read it in context it will make sense. We must remember that just a few verses above Paul was reminding them that there ought to be no divisions in the Church. No "I belong to Appolos," or "I belong to Paul." Apparently people were making distinctions and special allegiance to the one who initiated them into the Church. Paul here reminds them, though, that he only baptized one house, but we are all one in Christ. He is in no way denying the necessity of Baptism, but saying that He came to preach the Gospel. He is making a point that while one might be baptized by different people, it is the Gospel that makes them one. Paul never denies the necessity of Baptism, especially here.

It would help to have an understanding of vocations here. God calls people to certain tasks or certain jobs according to His will. Paul here mentions that his primary vocation was to preach the Gospel, not to baptize. That is someone else's vocation, but that does not degrade the necessity in the least bit. I hope that helps.

[quote]concerning the household baptisms of Acts, two things need to be noted, firstly, apostolic practice must agree with apostolic teaching,[/quote] Much like Scripture and Tradition go hand in hand.


[quote]and secondly, in almost every case, Acts specifically notes that the people involved were first preached to, second believed, and only then were baptized. [/quote]I can only say once again that you are missing the difference between infants and adults. One cannot preach to an infant and expect the 5 month old to respond. If you are going to refute infant Baptism you will need to produce something that states against baptizing infants. Here you have only produced items speaking to adults. I will go ahead and break this down a bit for you.

A normal adult has the use of reason and will. An infant does not. An adult is able to respond and so is able to be held accountable for responding. An infant cannot. An adult is able to speak for himself. For an infant the parents or guardian has speaking priveliges.


[quote]In Acts 2:41; “they that gladly received his message were baptized”
In Acts 8:12; “but when they (“the people”- verse 8) believed Philip preaching,… they were baptized.” [/quote]We do not disagree that faith must prelude Baptism, but we disagree on whether parents may speak for their children who are unable in this regard. Remember as you said, only those who believe are saved.


[quote]They are baptized because Peter realizes that they have already been saved/converted [/quote]Converted is a better word because we would more than likely have differing views on salvation. And once again, you are correct. An adult must have faith and be converted before Baptism. But what about the infant that cannot respond? The mentally ill person who cannot comprehend faith? Has God left them to perish in Hell because they were not smart enough to believe?


[quote]In Acts 16 Paul likewise preaches to “him and all the others in his house” and then they are all baptized, and the jailer is filled with joy because “he and his whole family” had “come to believe in God”. Again, as his whole household are said to have listened to Paul, believed in God, and then been baptized. Babies are not the subject here.
[/quote]I will respond to this instead of all of them if you will allow me for this seems to summarize your point. I believe, friend, that you are engaging in some eisigesis. You are reading something into Scripture. The term household means all who are in the house, including children. The Scrpture did not say: "All those in his household that believed were baptized." No. It says that all were baptized. You are adding a qualification that does not exist. Even if it did, I have shown you examples of where one's faith was able to speak for one who was not able to respond and Christ shed His healing grace upon the other. You have decided to ignore this in your response. It is of the utmost importance that you reconcile this because it does have profound consequences. The centurion had faith and that faith saved his servant's life. The infant's parents had faith, and that faith saved the infant that was not able to choose Christ due to the limitation of its own power of reason.


[quote]To be saved, you need hear and believe the message of salvation.[/quote]We agree. You must believe for salvation (Baptism of Desire can be a different topic). But how do we understand this? If you understand this as an inflexible rule, the child that dies 5 hours after birth is condemend to eternal punishment in Hell for that child never heard nor believed. The person that cannot comprehend the need for salvation due to a mental illness is damned to Hell because he cannot understand to believe. You are not describing a God of mercy and love, but one of pure legalism. A personal relationship is indeed a must, but for those that have not the capability for it, is it not possible as shown by the centurion and publican for someone else to speak for them?

Edited February 17, 2006 by phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

Is it just me or are your 'quote' boxes not working in that last post?

Thank you for posting also though.

Colin, Jesus said "Why do you call me good, no one but the Father is good"

Did Jesus mean that he is not God and is subordinate to the Father? If we are going to read the bible literally, each and every passage must be taken literaly. This is what Arius did and we got the heresy of Arianism, which I think even Briguy would agree with me is indeed heresy. We can't force the Bible to 'interpret itself' by making passages say what we want them to say by assigning a certian bias to them. The Bible is an organic whole and must be read as such.

Edited February 17, 2006 by Brother Adam

[Paphnutius]

Blast..! That will make it hard to read.....my apologies guys.

[Colin]

Hi again,
Adam, we agree that the Bible must be read as a whole. That is why its clear teaching on the way of salvation must influence our views on baptism.
When Paphnutius quotes John 3, he neglects to read a few verses down, "for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Just as in John 6:29 Jesus states that the ONE work we must do to please God is to believe on his son. And so another score of verses I have both quoted and not quoted.
Just as Jesus asked the woman who touched him to identify herself, as Paul states that if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths, so baptism is a public declaration of our faith. Jesus said if we were ashamed of him, he would be ashamed of us, and baptism is the normal, proper follow up to salvation. Were a person to die before they could be baptised, God is quite capable of seeing the truth in his heart. If, however, for fear of men or some other reason, a person believed then shrank back, this would be a sin. We follow Jesus command when we are baptised.
I can only state, the clear teaching of Scripture is that we are saved by believing in Jesus, by grace through faith. Nothing more.
Nowhere does the New Testament is baptism of babies either taught or practiced. If you wish to claim it as Biblical, you must be able to do both. Again, Jesus blessed little children, his goodwill towards them is obvious, but his did not baptise them.
To be saved, you only need to believe on Jesus. Then you are born again, filled with his Spirit, given new life. A baby does not repent, does not confess, does not believe, therefore it cannot be baptised.
I fear we are entering into a dialogue of the deaf. Sacrementalism to me seems contrary to the simple, clear message of the Bible. More like majic or superstition - if a baby isnt sprinkled with water God sends it to hell??? What sort of a God would beaver dam a baby for the lack of something it had absolutely no control over?
Take care, Colin
PS, Paphnutius stated I was guilty of eisigesis because the Scripture did not say "all who believed in his household were baptised." It did however state that all in his household believed, and that all his household were baptised. I cant see the eisigesis.

[thessalonian]

Colin,

So then are there two means of salvation, one for babies and one for adults? Or do babies go to h-e-double tooth picks? I do in fact know Protestants who believe that babies go to hell.

[ironmonk]

[quote]To be saved, you only need to believe on Jesus. Then you are born again, filled with his Spirit, given new life.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but you have been told wrong because the above quote contradicts scripture.

[b]St. Matt. 7:21 [/b]
"[color=red]Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. [/color]

[b]Unless[/b] you do the will of the Father you will [b]not [/b]enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Other verses which show that we need to do more than believe....

[b]James 2:20 [/b]
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that [u][b]faith without works is useless[/b][/u]?

[b]Mark 16:16[/b] [color=red]Whoever believes [u][b]and [/b][/u][b]is baptized [/b]will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned[/color].

[b]John 3:19 [/b]
[color=red]And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. [/color]
[b]21 [/b][color=red]But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, [b]so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.[/b] [/color]

[b]2 Corin. 11:15 [/b]
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. [u][b]Their end will correspond to their deeds. [/b][/u]


[b]Titus 3:8 [/b]This saying is trustworthy. 3 I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works; these are excellent and beneficial to others.
...
[b]14 [/b]But let our people, too, learn to devote themselves to good works to supply urgent needs, so that they may not be unproductive.

[b]Rev. 22:12 [/b]"[color=red]Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense [u][b]I will give to each according to his deeds.[/b][/u] [/color]


[b]St. Matt 10:22[/b]
[color=red]You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.[/color]

[b]St. Matt 24:13[/b]
[color=red]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.[/color]

We are not saved until the end.

[b]Hermas[/b]
"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [[b]A.D. 80[/b]]).


[b]Justin Martyr[/b]
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [[b]A.D. 151[/b]]).


[b]Tertullian[/b]
"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [[b]A.D. 203[/b]]).

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).

[b]Hippolytus[/b]
"[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation" (Homilies 11:26 [[b]A.D. 217[/b]]).


[b]Origen[/b]
"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism" (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [[b]A.D. 235[/b]]).



In regards to rule of faith, please look up and meditate on...
1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Tim. 3:15, 2 Tim. 2:2, 2 Peter 1:20, 3:15-16



Your servant in Christ,
ironmonk

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Colin' date='Feb 17 2006, 04:45 AM'] More like majic or superstition - if a baby isnt sprinkled with water God sends it to hell??? What sort of a God would beaver dam a baby for the lack of something it had absolutely no control over?
[/quote]That is our point, but you are not answering the question about what happens to them. Do you believe that they have the stain of Original Sin as I have shown? Let us start there with one point then progress to others.

Do babies have the stain of Original Sin from their birth?

[quote]Paphnutius stated I was guilty of eisigesis because the Scripture did not say "all who believed in his household were baptised." It did however state that all in his household believed, and that all his household were baptised. I cant see the eisigesis.
[/quote]You if we are reading the same Acts 16:[quote]16:25. And at midnight, Paul and Silas, praying, praised God. And they that were in prison heard them. 16:26. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened and the bands of all were loosed. 16:27. And the keeper of the prison, awakening out of his sleep and seeing the doors of the prison open, drawing his sword, would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.16:28. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying: Do thyself no harm, for we all are here. 16:29. Then calling for a light, he went in: and trembling, fell down at the feet of Paul and Silas. 16:30. And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved? 16:31. But they said: [b]believe in the Lord Jesus: and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 16:32. And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. 16:33. And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes: and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately.[/b] 16:34. And when he had brought them into his own house, he laid the table for them: and rejoiced with all his house, believing God. [/quote]Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not see a "and they all believed so they were Baptized." It said that Paul preached to them then washed their wounds (Baptism).

[[quote]so baptism is a public declaration of our faith [/quote]And it cleanses us from our sins by grace...would you please respond to some of my statements at least rather than just ignoring them? I have quoted the necessity of Baptism from Christ, Paul, and Peter...silence. I have shown how it does remove our sins by the grace of God....silence. I have shown how in other places Christ healed someone for another's faith....silence from you. I have shown how we are born with Original Sin (being condemend because of Adam)....silence. You are correct, we are entering into a conversation of the deaf. Please, engage me at least on Original Sin so that we might make some headway.

Thank you Ironmonk on the posting on solda fide.

Edited February 17, 2006 by Paphnutius

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 16 2006, 08:04 PM']Blast..! That will make it hard to read.....my apologies guys.
[right][snapback]889700[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
if you have more than the alotted number of quote boxes, then they don't work. so, i indented your passages from scripture, instead of making them quotes, and that fixed everything

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Feb 17 2006, 10:14 AM']if you have more than the alotted number of quote boxes, then they don't work. so, i indented your passages from scripture, instead of making them quotes, and that fixed everything
[right][snapback]890381[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
That is handy to know.

Thank you for fixing them!

[Colin]

Hi there,
thanks to Ironmonk for his post re salvation by faith and /or works.
I think we often get messed up by the Protestant emphasis on salvation as the initial being born again, and then sanctification as the ongoing progress of the Christian walk. Clearly, the Bible speaks of salvation as a past event, you were saved, as a present event, you are being saved, and as a future event, you will be saved.
If we use salvation most often for the first stage, would you use conversion for it?
Beyond that, there is the real issue of how, on what basis, we are made right with God. As we agree, salvation is a love relationship with God (wow!). It is something I could never earn - "If I stop swearing, will you send your Son to die for me?" just doesnt make sence. I could never earn that Jesus should give his life for mine - I could never be worthy or deserving of that! I can simply thank Jesus with my whole heart and accept his unmerited love for me. I am saved by grace, and live by grace. What does this mean? It means when I told God I was not worthy to be called his son, he rushed out, huged me, and prepared a feast for me.
What place then for works?
Well, as a child of my Father, I desire to please him, to live according to my new nature. So yes, there are works for me to do. But these have no bearing on my salvation except as outward expressions of its reality.
I try to follow God each day, not because Im afraid of going to hell if I dont - perfect love casts out fear, I do it simply because I love Him, and know how endless is his love for me. I do it as an act of love, simply to please him - not because I am worried about my salvation. Yes, works are important, but not for that reason.
Sometimes I get my wife flowers, not because she will divorce me if I dont, not with any alterior motive, but just because I love her. The same with my God. Am I afraid of hell, desperately trying to earn my salvation each day? No!
I have never been to mass, confessed to a priest, prayed to a saint, yet God has given me his Holy Spirit, enlightened His word, I worship him in spirit and in truth, I know utterly he loves me.
Its not a question of a hierachy, a beauracracy, of a patent or a copy right - its not a matter of having all the correct forms filled out. Its a matter of knowing whom I have believed in. Its a matter of a living love relationship with him each day.
Hope this helps explain where I am coming from, Colin

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Colin' date='Feb 19 2006, 10:13 PM'] But these have no bearing on my salvation except as outward expressions of its reality.[/quote]
Romans 2:4-8. We are judged according to our works.

Also: I am willing to give you as much time as you need, but I am curious if you are going to respond to my statements about Original Sin.

Edited February 20, 2006 by Paphnutius

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Colin' date='Feb 20 2006, 12:13 AM']Clearly, the Bible speaks of salvation as a past event, you were saved, as a present event, you are being saved, and as a future event, you will be saved.

[right][snapback]892451[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Colin,

Thank you for your reply. I'm glad that we totally agree on this point.


[quote]If we use salvation most often for the first stage, would you use conversion for it?[/quote]

Yes, I think you could say that. We see conversion as an ongoing event. We can always come closer to Christ.

[quote]It is something I could never earn[/quote]

We agree here too. The Catholic Church teaches that the only reason why we are saved is because Jesus Christ died for us.

[quote]Well, as a child of my Father, I desire to please him, to live according to my new nature. So yes, there are works for me to do. But these have no bearing on my salvation except as outward expressions of its reality.[/quote]

Our works do have a bearing on our salvation. If we do not do the will of the father, we will not see Heaven. No where in history before 1500 AD is that interpretation of salvation. If you were correct we would easily be able to find quotes from the first Christians about that. What you write here contradicts the first 1500 years of Christian teachings. Since Christ built One Faith, if a teachings contradicts something that was from the beginning of Christianity, it cannot be true.

[b]St. Matt. 7:21[/b]
"[color=red]Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but [b]only the one who [u]does [/u]the will of my Father [/b]in heaven[/color].

Our deeds (works) will justify our reward...

[b]Rev. 20:12 [/b]
I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. [u][b]The dead were judged according to their deeds,[/b][/u] by what was written in the scrolls.


[b]St. Luke 12:47 [/b]
[color=red]That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; [/color]
[b]48 [/b][color=red]and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more. [/color]

[b]2 Corin 11:15 [/b]
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. [b]Their end will correspond to their deeds[/b].



A few quotes from the first Christians...

[b]The Didache[/b]

"Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time" (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).

[b]Hermas[/b]

"And as many of them . . . as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower [i.e., the Church]. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish. . . . But if any one relapse into strife, he will be cast out of the tower, and will lose his life. Life is the possession of all who keep the commandments of the Lord" (The Shepherd 3:8:7 [A.D. 80]).

[b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b]

"And pray without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God?" (Letter to the Ephesians 10 [A.D. 110]).

"Be pleasing to him whose soldiers you are, and whose pay you receive. May none of you be found to be a deserter. Let your baptism be your armament, your faith your helmet, your love your spear, your endurance your full suit of armor. Let your works be as your deposited withholdings, so that you may receive the back-pay which has accrued to you" (Letter to Polycarp 6:2 [A.D. 110]).

[b]Justin Martyr[/b]
"We have learned from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man’s actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed" (First Apology 43 [A.D. 151]).

"[E]ternal fire was prepared for him who voluntarily departed from God and for all who, without repentance, persevere in apostasy" (fragment in Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:26 [A.D. 156]).

[b]Irenaeus[/b]

"[T]o Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ [Phil. 2:10–11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . [T]he ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"[Paul], an able wrestler, urges us on in the struggle for immortality, so that we may receive a crown and so that we may regard as a precious crown that which we acquire by our own struggle and which does not grow upon us spontaneously. . . . Those things which come to us spontaneously are not loved as much as those which are obtained by anxious care" (Against Heresies 4:37:7 [A.D. 189]).


[quote]I try to follow God each day, not because Im afraid of going to hell if I dont - perfect love casts out fear, I do it simply because I love Him, and know how endless is his love for me. [/quote]

That is great that you too have a profound love for God. Although, it is important that you do fear going to hell, because there is a hell. We must run the race to win. St. Paul who walked with Christ says to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. There is a chance we could fall, and we must always be on our gaurd not to. If we fall and fail to repent before we die, we could go to hell.

[b]Phil. 2:12 [/b]
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.


[b]St. Luke 8:13 [/b]
[color=red]Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they [u][b]believe only for a time and fall away [/b][/u]in time of trial. [/color]

Rom. 11:22 See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, [b][u]provided you continue [/u]in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off[/b]"



[quote]Am I afraid of hell, desperately trying to earn my salvation each day? No! [/quote]

St. Paul was afraid of hell and told others to be. We do not earn our salvation, but if we want salvation we must work for it.

[quote]God has given me his Holy Spirit, enlightened His word, I worship him in spirit and in truth, I know utterly he loves me.[/quote]

How do you know that God has given you His Spirit? Everyone in the New Testament had to have hands laid on them before they received the Spirit. The hands that were laid on them had to be able to be traced to the Apostles. God does love you, as He loves all men... but some men will go to Hell because they reject God's love by not doing His will or rejecting the ones He sent.

[b]Luke 10:16[/b] "[color=red]He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me[/color]"

Christ told the first bishops (Apostles) that the Spirit of Truth will guide them always, until the end of age.

[b]St. John 14:16 [/b]
[color=red]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, [/color]
[b]17 [/b][color=red]the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. [/color]
[b]18 [/b][color=red]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.[/color]
...
[b]26 [/b][color=red]The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. [/color]

If you where worshiping God in Spirit and Truth, then you would not contradict what has been taught since 33 AD.

The teaching authority is the Church, which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth because Jesus guides it, as He promised in St. John 14.


[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the [b]church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth[/b].


[quote]Its not a question of a hierachy, a beauracracy, of a patent or a copy right - its not a matter of having all the correct forms filled out. Its a matter of knowing whom I have believed in. Its a matter of a living love relationship with him each day.  [/quote]

It is a matter of authority.

[b]St Matt 18:17 [/b] (Jesus said) [color=red]If he refuses to listen to them, [u][b]tell the church[/b][/u]. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. [/color]

[b]St. Matt 28:18[/b] Then Jesus approached and said to them, "[color=red]All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.[/color]
[b]19 [/b][color=red]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age[/color]."


We should remain faithful because from whom we learn it. Unless we learn the faith from the people that can be directly traced to the Apostles which then is to Christ, we will be lead astray by the very groups that the Scriptures warn us of.

[b]2 Timothy 3:14 [/b]
But you, [b][u]remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it[/u][/b],

[b]2 Tim 2:2 [/b]
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.


[b]2 Thess 2:15 [/b]
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

[b]Acts 20:29 [/b]
I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.
[b]30 [/b]And from your own group, [b]men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them[/b].

[b]2 Peter 1:20 [/b] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

[b]2 Peter 3:15[/b]
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
[b]16 [/b]speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that [u][b]the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures[/b][/u].



If you would like to get the first Christian writings, you can buy them here:
[url="http://www.logos.com/products/details/518"]http://www.logos.com/products/details/518[/url] for $250

Or read them for free here:
[url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url]

Please note what Logos writes...
[quote]The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text.[/quote]

Why would the Protestant edition have to contain "additional front matter written at a later date"?

You can see quotes where all the distinctly Catholic teachings are from here: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library.asp[/url]
(use the Library box links to the left to navigate).

[quote]I have never been to mass, confessed to a priest, prayed to a saint, yet [/quote]

No one is perfect and we are all trying to be closer to Christ. I am greatful that you are taking the time to dialog with me.

Again, thank you and God Bless.

A couple other resources to better understand Catholicism...

[url="http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com[/url] <- Where are Catholic teachings in Scripture? This is a great resource.

[url="http://www.Catholic-Pages.com"]http://www.Catholic-Pages.com[/url] <- Lots of stuff.

Your servant in Christ,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote]God has given me his Holy Spirit,[/quote]

I want to elaborate a little more on this statement...

Many people in the world believe that God has given them His Holy Spirit... yet, there are thousands of contradictions in what each of them believe to be the 100% truth, as promised in St. John 14.

How can we know that we have the Spirit of God when so many people think that they do, and if they did, they would not contradict each other?

How can we know that we have the Spirit of God unless we do a litmus test of what the first Christians taught about the Scriptures before 500 AD?

Please think about it.

Your servant in Christ,
ironmonk