MilesChristi Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 In various places the Catechism refers to it as the sacrament of reconciliation, the sacrament of confession, and the sacrament of penance. Any of these names are fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avemaria40 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 09:38 PM']not to be rude or anything, but only non-Catholics call Catholics "Roman Catholics." A Roman Catholic is either a Latin Rite Catholic ( and there are many other rites) or a Cathoilc who lives in the City of Rome. Catholics usually refer to themselves as "Catholics". [right][snapback]885177[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I am a Catholic and I do refer to myself as Roman Catholic, and my parish refers to itself as a Roman Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='avemaria40' date='Feb 12 2006, 09:57 PM']all three of those things (confession, penance, reconciliation) all happen in the Sacrament, so it's not like you're calling it something it's not [right][snapback]885209[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Exactly right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 [quote]In various places the Catechism refers to it as the sacrament of reconciliation, the sacrament of confession, and the sacrament of penance. Any of these names are fine.[/quote] I know that you are refering to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is not the most authoritive catechism. The Catechism of the Council of Trent is much more authoritive, so let's read it instead. [quote]Well as others have pointed out, Confession and Penance only refer to parts of the Sacrament while Reconciliation refers to the entire act. So there were not really two better words in use for theologians from around the world in conjunction with the pope decided that another word will also be suitable. So it would be helpful if you would offer an argument as to why you think the other word exclude the use of Reconciliation, and do not use Tradition for 1) a council used (remember that the Church speaks with the voice of Christ [Lk 10:16]) 2) it was not started by Vatican II, but is indeed a biblical word.[/quote] Confession and Penance are better words. Reconciliation is a touchy feely word, and the Church has never been touchy feely. Confession and Reconciliation both refer to tasks that are often difficult and humiliating, which is good because it makes you sorrier for your sins. And, just so you know, reconciliation dosent describe the whole sacrament either. [quote]all three of those things (confession, penance, reconciliation) all happen in the Sacrament, so it's not like you're calling it something it's not[/quote] Confession and Penance are names that the Sacrament has been called for centures and I see no reason to depart from tradition. [quote]Nope, doesn't bother me. However, I call it Confession. As in I am going to Confession. However, I receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation.[/quote] no, you go to Confession and recieve the Sacrament of Penance (that is what the Catechism of the Council of Trent calls teh Sacrament) [quote]Vatican II (a perfectly legitimate and infallible council, by the way)[/quote] Vatican II, though legitimate, was not infallable. [quote]My dog tags clearly state my religion as Roman Catholic. The U.S. Gubmint couldn't possibly be wrong, could it? [/quote] the US govt. is a bunch of flaming athiestic liberals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 10:06 PM']I know that you are refering to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is not the most authoritive catechism. [right][snapback]885224[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Incorrect. Read [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/aposcons.htm"]Fidei Depositum[/url]. It is authoritative and it is the most complete Catechism. It is truly universal. Again, how about keeping an open mind and not being so obsintant? You have a lot to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Well, you know, the Church wasnt always called the Catholic Church.. it was just plain old "Christian Church" but people started calling it Catholic.. Therefore, we are not saying we are "disciples of Christ" but rather, just "universal." So, should be break from calling ourselves the Catholic Church and opt for Christian Church since that is what we were originally called? You are being silly. It is fine to have a preference as to what word you like better, but reconciliation is perfectly acceptable to use, just as much as confession or penance. If you wish to deny that reconciliation is what happens there, then start a new thread about it. But, as long as reconciliation happens in the sacrament, if is fine to call it that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 [quote]I know that you are refering to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is not the most authoritive catechism. The Catechism of the Council of Trent is much more authoritive, so let's read it instead.[/quote] [quote]Do not allow yourselves to be deceived by the cunning statements of those who persistently claim to wish to be with the Church, to love the Church, to fight so that people do not leave Her. ...But judge them by their works. If they despise the shepherds of the Church and even the Pope, if they attempt all means of evading their authority in order to elude their directives and judgments...then about which Church do these men mean to speak? Certainly not about that established on the foundations of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. --Pope St. Pius X[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 08:06 PM']I know that you are refering to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is not the most authoritive catechism. The Catechism of the Council of Trent is much more authoritive, so let's read it instead. Confession and Penance are names that the Sacrament has been called for centures and I see no reason to depart from tradition.[/quote]Shall we go over the Apostolic Consitution again Thomas? [quote]Confession and Reconciliation both refer to tasks that are often difficult and humiliating, which is good because it makes you sorrier for your sins. And, just so you know, reconciliation dosent describe the whole sacrament either. [/quote]So because they are harsher words they are better? That is hardly a reason. What about the part of the sacrament that encompasses reconciliation? You have left that part out. I would also love you to show me why Reconciliation is not the whole act. Confessing and doing penance are parts of being [i]reconciled [/i]with God. An argument again please? I find it ironic that you appeal to Reconciliation being all emotional, yet you prefer other words because they are harder feeling words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avemaria40 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 President Bush is a conservative Christian and there are many good people as well as dishonest people, religious and atheist, liberal and conservative working in our govn't. Btw, what about Rick Santorum, a Catholic senator who works in the US govn't but has the integrity to follow his Catholic Faith on teachings like abortion and gay marriage? Don't diss the govn't, at least our govn't isn't like Saudi Arabia where you can be killed for being a Catholic. At least this country offers us rights and freedoms and we've had more peace and equality in this country than any Divine Right or Communist country can claim. No government is perfect but the US govn't is not just full of atheistic liberals and all the same, the atheistic liberals are also trying to make sure we stay free. Please have some respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah_JC Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 If the penance is the sacrament... how come one is absolved before he completes it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 09:15 PM']Is there anything that says that I am on fisheaters or that my parents are not on fisheaters? [right][snapback]885142[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes, you on another thread. Please don't lie about things such as this. Thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 [quote]Yes, you on another thread. Please don't lie about things such as this. Thank you very much.[/quote] Please show me my incorrect post, that I may correct is. [quote]If the penance is the sacrament... how come one is absolved before he completes it?[/quote] Madame, please read the Catechism of the Council of Trent, the most authoritive catechism in existence. [quote]Shall we go over the Apostolic Consitution again Thomas?[/quote] The Catechism of the Council of Trent is more authoritive, and that's final. [quote]So because they are harsher words they are better? That is hardly a reason.[/quote] yes, touchy-feely things are too demmed liberal. [quote]Confessing and doing penance are parts of being reconciled with God. An argument again please?[/quote] Penance is a temporal punishment for your sins. [quote]Do not allow yourselves to be deceived by the cunning statements of those who persistently claim to wish to be with the Church, to love the Church, to fight so that people do not leave Her. ...But judge them by their works. If they despise the shepherds of the Church and even the Pope, if they attempt all means of evading their authority in order to elude their directives and judgments...then about which Church do these men mean to speak? Certainly not about that established on the foundations of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. --Pope St. Pius X[/quote] right back atcha! by the way, St. Pius X is one of my favorite popes and saints. [quote]Well, you know, the Church wasnt always called the Catholic Church.. it was just plain old "Christian Church" but people started calling it Catholic.. Therefore, we are not saying we are "disciples of Christ" but rather, just "universal." So, should be break from calling ourselves the Catholic Church and opt for Christian Church since that is what we were originally called?[/quote] The Chuch was actually called the Catholic Church since its beginning. [quote]Incorrect. Read Fidei Depositum. It is authoritative and it is the most complete Catechism. It is truly universal. Again, how about keeping an open mind and not being so obsintant? You have a lot to learn.[/quote] No, The CCT is the most authoritive Catechism and is truly universal. you have alot to learn, too, SIR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 10:25 PM']No, The CCT is the most authoritive Catechism and is truly universal. you have alot to learn, too, SIR (edit smiley) [right][snapback]885262[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Shall I quote Fidei Depositum? Ok. [quote name='Fidei Depositum #2']A catechism should faithfully and systematically present the teaching of Sacred Scripture, the living Tradition in the Church and the authentic Magisterium, as well as the spiritual heritage of the Fathers, Doctors and saints of the Church, to allow for a better knowledge of the Christian mystery and for enlivening the faith of the People of God. It should take into account the doctrinal statements which down the centuries the Holy Spirit has intimated to his Church. It should also help to illumine with the light of faith the new situations and problems which had not yet emerged in the past. This catechism will thus contain both the new and the old (cf. Mt 13:52), because the faith is always the same yet the source of ever new light. To respond to this twofold demand, the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the one hand repeats the "old", traditional order already followed by the Catechism of St. Pius V, arranging the material in four parts: the Creed, the Sacred Liturgy, with pride of place given to the sacraments, the Christian way of life, explained beginning with the Ten Commandments, and finally, Christian prayer. At the same time, however, the contents are often presented in a "new" way in order to respond to the questions of our age. [/quote] In other words, the CCC is the proper way to catechize and respond to the questions of our age, while recognizing the older teachings (ie. Catechism of St. Pius V). [quote name='Fidei Depositum #3']The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus' disciples (cf. Lk 22:32 as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith.....)[/quote] [quote name='Fidei Depositum #3']It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.[/quote] So, Tommy, we can clearly see that this is the authoritative Catechism of our age. And in case you missed this part; [quote name='Fidei Depositum Introduction']On that occasion the Synod Fathers stated: "Very many have expressed the desire that a catechism or compendium of all Catholic doctrine regarding both faith and morals be composed, that it might be, as it were, a point of reference for the catechisms or compendiums that are prepared in various regions. The presentation of doctrine must be biblical and liturgical. It must be sound doctrine suited to the present life of Christians." After the Synod ended, I made this desire my own, considering it as "fully responding to a real need of the universal Church and of the particular Churches". For this reason we thank the Lord wholeheartedly on this day when we can offer the entire Church this "reference text" entitled the Catechism of the Catholic Church, for a catechesis renewed at the living sources of the faith![/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 09:25 PM']The Chuch was actually called the Catholic Church since its beginning. [right][snapback]885262[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The Church wasnt always called the "Catholic Church" from the begining. The name was given to the Church, and shows up about the time of St Ignatius of Antioch. He called it "catholic." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 (edited) [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 08:25 PM']yes, touchy-feely things are too demmed liberal. was actually called the Catholic Church since its beginning. [right][snapback]885262[/snapback][/right] [/quote] By whom? You? Also show me how that is too touchy feely. Furthermore, you are still arguing from the same premise that you deny Reconciliation being suitable so come up with something else. [quote]Penance is a temporal punishment for your sins. [/quote]Which is a part of the sanctification process and thus...reconciliation. [quote]No, The CCT is the most authoritive Catechism and is truly universal. you have alot to learn, too, SIR [/quote]YOu keep saying that but please some proof. Also, how can one catechism be more authoritive than another? They express the same truth do they not? If they express the same truth then why do you reject the CCC? Honestly....answer this please. The Church has stated that the CCC is a sure guide for teaching. Why do you refuse to refer to it? Edited February 13, 2006 by Paphnutius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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