What form of govt. do you think is best?

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 15 2006, 07:55 PM']America, when first colonized, was just an extension of the particular country that landed (Britain, Spain, Portugal, etc). That is, in a sense, THEIR history, not ours.

Our history is that of the United States, a completely new sovereign nation.
[right][snapback]888436[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

The colonies that declared themselves the United States were not of any nation besides that of Great Britain if I recall correctly? They didnt appear out of the sky. The history of those areas prior to the war for independence was the paying of taxes to the British King (and quite happily if I recall).

[Era Might]

[quote name='Myles' date='Feb 15 2006, 03:58 PM']The colonies that declared themselves the United States were not of any nation besides that of Great Britain if I recall correctly? They didnt appear out of the sky. The history of those areas prior to the war for independence was the paying of taxes to the British King (and quite happily if I recall).
[right][snapback]888438[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

The original colonies, yes. Later colonies, however, included Spain and Portugal (eg, Florida, California) and France.

Of course the founders of the United States were once under the rule of the British empire. They renounced this empire, a foreign entity over an entire sea, and established their own nation on democratic principles.

The United States is a completely new and sovereign nation, with its own history. It isn't a new "phase" of the British Empire. The United States was never under British rule. The individual colonies were, but they do not constitute the United States.

You guys did, after all, lose the war.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Era Might

[Aloysius]

A popularity contest is at least based on something? hmm... let's see... what's it based upon...

oh yeah, popularity, how much you can convince people to like you, how much you can bend to do whatever will make them like you better regardless of what is right for the country...

and what's a monarchy based upon? family, upbringing, education, et cetera. we're an odd society who does not think that a FAMILY makes a man, but rather a man makes himself... very odd indeed

there can be exceptions, but in human civilization families generally make men. families make the ladies too if you think my language is sexist (BAH!).

a monarch is a voice for the wisdom of the past, because he has been brought up thouroughly educated in the wisdom of the past.

a democratic ruler is a voice for the will of the mob of the present.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 15 2006, 08:08 PM']A popularity contest is at least based on something?  hmm... let's see... what's it based upon...

oh yeah, popularity, how much you can convince people to like you, how much you can bend to do whatever will make them like you better regardless of what is right for the country...

and what's a monarchy based upon?  family, upbringing, education, et cetera.  we're an odd society who does not think that a FAMILY makes a man, but rather a man makes himself... very odd indeed

there can be exceptions, but in human civilization families generally make men.  families make the ladies too if you think my language is sexist (BAH!).

a monarch is a voice for the wisdom of the past, because he has been brought up thouroughly educated in the wisdom of the past.

a democratic ruler is a voice for the will of the mob of the present.
[right][snapback]888448[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

:applause:

Yes democracy, democracy lets see how much horse trading and vain flattery I can pass off to get put in the leadership role of my party before digging up any kind of dirt I can about my opponent, slandering him horribly and flattering the mob influencing them through the newspapers run by the parties biggest supporters.

[Aloysius]

it's quite ironic that I have two great heroes of mine sitting next to all these posts, two heroes of mine I agree with about so much... who both very much believed in democracy!

and one of them (Belloc), God help us, even thought the French Revolution was based on essentially human and thus Catholic principles (the same thing John Paul II said that caused an uproar in trad circles). ah well, I forgive him his ethnocentric bias in this regard since he was part french... kind of like American Catholics who always pound the fact that the founding fathers were Christian but downplay the fact that they were also deists and masons. national pride, I suppose, can cloud some issues... even for one of the greatest Catholic historians ever...

ah well, both of them at the same time did argue that the old system of things was not bad either...

[Era Might]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 15 2006, 04:08 PM']a monarch is a voice for the wisdom of the past, because he has been brought up thouroughly educated in the wisdom of the past.

[right][snapback]888448[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

And yet the Psalmist told us not to place our trust in princes.

Mighty faith has he in our leaders.

[Aloysius]

not putting your trust in princes applies to anyone who rules... if the psalmist were alive today he'd also say not to put trust in presidents

and I didn't understand the Yoda comment? are you talking about me in the third person, or the psalmist, or God?

we should not put our trust in temporal authorities over God

[avemaria40]

noone ever said democracy was perfect, you'll find scandal in any govn't

[Era Might]

Your argument makes no sense.

You say American elections are nothing but popularity contests.

But at least a popularity contest is based on SOMETHING - popularity.

A blood line King is not based on anything.

You bring up good family, but there's nothing to prevent a family in America from bringing up a holy man to enter politics.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 15 2006, 04:15 PM']not putting your trust in princes applies to anyone who rules... if the psalmist were alive today he'd also say not to put trust in presidents
[right][snapback]888461[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Exactly. That's the point. A monarchy has no superiority over democracy. All government can be corrupted.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 15 2006, 02:08 PM']
[snip]

a democratic ruler is a voice for the will of the mob of the present.
[right][snapback]888448[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I love that you use that term; 'mob'.

It is both accurate and appropriate.

A mob has no intelligence; it is a beast the likes you find in the wild. A mob will act to no better than that of whims. A mob will act to the detriment of anyone and everyone, including itself; and for the lone sake of its own deranged 'interests' and desires, like same-sex 'marriage', abortion, and .... arrghhh... you're getting me started again!

Sometimes i feel like the hulk... sometimes I don't.


Talk to youz all tomorrow... punch time for me.

[Aloysius]

if families were not so denegrated today, then a bloodlines WOULD mean something.

yes, a family in America could bring up a good holy man to enter politics. and then that good and holy man is going to have to come up with some way to convince the special interest groups to give him money and the people to vote for him and the parties to endorse him and the media to put him in a good light, et cetera et cetera

of course, we have an elected monarchial system, whereby a certain noble class (the wealthy) are the only ones that have any likelihood of getting elected. just look at where presidential candidates come from... Bush comes from a wealthy family; Kerry at least married into a wealthy family but he himself also came from one, et cetera et cetera. Those who do not think there is a noble class pool for our leaders are merely blinding themselves to the facts.

[avemaria40]

yeah, good Catholics can and have entered the field of American politics, look at Rick Santorum!

[Era Might]

A King can be just as deranged and vicious as a mob, except he has no one standing in his way.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 15 2006, 03:17 PM']Exactly. That's the point. A monarchy has no superiority over democracy. All government can be corrupted.
[right][snapback]888466[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
it does not follow that one form of government cannot be considered better than another form simply because we are not to put absolute trust in any of them.