Gays to protest Flyn Mass

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 13 2006, 07:24 PM']Jesus Christ drove the money changers out of the temple court with a whip for "turning His Father's House into a marketplace"!

How much more would Our Lord react againt those turning His House and Dwelling Place into a place of godless and evil political protest, while disrupting His Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!!

Yet those who oppose this abomination are called "a Catholic version of the Hitler Youth." 
Yeah, all us right-wingers are Nazis!  (Very original slur  )

It truly makes me sad that so many "good Catholics" on here seem to have more sympathy for the "gay rights" movement than for those trying to drive this outrage out of the Church.
"Gay rights" seems to be the great sacred cow of our times.
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So I suppose this means I'm now omitted from the classy dames of phatmass list. Too bad. I can live with that, but would rather not be branded as a not so "good Catholic" that sympathises with the gay rights movement.

If you could point out the spot where I used a slur calling right wingers Nazis, I'd appreciate it.

If you could also point out where I expressed any sympathy for what the rainbow sash movement stands for, or that I somehow have no regard for protecting the sanctity of the mass, I'd appreciate that, too.

If you want to discuss whether or not Jesus actually physically whipped people when cleansing the temple, and in what context he would advocate physical force, there's another board for doing that.

But given the situation, I had every right to question what people were suggesting. Maybe I was taking what were intended to be jokes too seriously. The thing is, I don't have a problem with making the effort to drive outrages out of the church -- in fact it's my own obligation to take part in it. I just happen to believe that what people were suggesting would only make the situation worse. God gave us muscles, but he also gave us brains.

You want to know how Fred Phelps' church gets the money to travel and picket his "god hates fags" message -- some of his targets which includes Catholic Churches? From lawsuits because of people assaulting him. I happen to know this because he picketed my home parish.

Perhaps using a Hitler Youth analogy is hypocritical of me, considering the fact that I've criticized others on the board for throwing the term "Nazi" around so flippantly, so for that I apologize for my hypocrisy. My point is, I find the "who is the most badass Catholic out there" attitude that crops up at times to be pompous, arrogant, uncharitable, lacking in humility, and in the end, not all that effective. I used to have that attitude during my studies in college, which I believed at the time to be "zeal" -- I look back and find my attitude was an immature embarrassment to the Church.

I've never been under the impression that I was somehow a "bad Catholic" for not advocating beating Big Gay Al in the name of Mother Church, or worse yet, suggesting there are more effective ways of handling the situation.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Ash Wednesday

[HisChild]

I think, in my own experience the biggest problem I have, not just with the whole homosexual argument, but also with the abortion argument, the celibate priest, pedophilia, you-name-it argument that the Catholic Church is at the center of. . .is that Jesus did in fact preach that 'those who live by the sword, die by the sword', but He ALSO got to a point where He just said 'enough'. We are children of the New Testament but we have not forsaken the Old. There are plenty of times where we are told to pick up our swords.

We as Catholics are very good at turning the other cheek. It is a good example. Some would even call us pacifists. they do it as a slur, which we accept as a compliment and wear that badge proudly. But in today's world, sometimes I just get SO angry that anything that the Catholic Church says, does or doesn't do, is on page one. The rest of the denom. out there? Moved to p.15 or something.

That, too, is a double edged sword, because that makes any of our behaviors magnified. If we are maligned and don't defend ourselves, that makes us look guilty. If we DO defend ourselves, we are still perceived as guilty, but then our violence is ADDED to our guilt, added to our perceived faults.

I once heard a talk from a non Catholic senator. He said the Catholic Church is the most persecuted organization out there. He used that term so that he could show its inclusion with various groups, religions, clubs, races, sexes, etc. No where do we see persecution so much as of our own Church. What does that say, by the way? Satan wouldn't be bothered with us, so much, if we didn't hold Truth. . .in our Doctrine, and in our Tabernacles. But as an aside, there are so many groups out there who organize themselves for the primary focus to argue, libel, and slander us.

That should make us that much more aware of our actions, which is what I think you are saying, Ash. However, there are times, that we, as infallible and yet, fervent Christians, in love with Jesus and in love with Truth and in love with our Church, that we too, want to say, Enough! Enough of the lies, the persecution, the 'we should all practice tolerance. .. . unless its for the Catholic Church' stance. And we want to DO something about it.

That's my $.05. I can see both sides. I've been both sides. And neither are wrong per se. As long as our actions are backed by prayer and the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

God bless you.

[Ash Wednesday]

Well said. And I certainly understand what you are saying. I guess in the end I guess that's all I can ask -- is that we think, pray, long and hard about our actions. Thank you. Edited February 15, 2006 by Ash Wednesday

[HisChild]

Thank you. I was hoping I wasn't being verbose.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Feb 13 2006, 03:04 PM']What won't happen?  Gay marriage?  It's not at all unlikely.   [right][snapback]886218[/snapback][/right]
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What I mean by their protesting for a lost cause is that rainbow sashers are protesting to see the Church "change" and accept the lifestyle as legitimate. It's certainly a reality that we will follow in Europe's footsteps like we always do and have some silly form of "gay marriage" -- but there will still be rainbow sashers at the steps of the church asking for the church to "change", when it will not.

[YMNolan]

[quote name='Church Punk' date='Feb 13 2006, 12:41 PM']I agree with you. A rosary rally out side the Church would be called for, perhaps a procession of the Holy Eucharist in the Monstrance would be even more effective. The protestors would have the opportunity to see Jesus with their own 2 eyes. Like they are looking him in directly in the eye. 

We do not cast judgment upon them. Let Jesus do it. We do not know the status of their hearts. Perhaps they will learn something from being at the Cathedral. Given the change Jesus will change lives.

If we start tossing punches like it’s some bar fight, what message of the Church does the present? Does this open the doors to allow them to encounter Christ? Or are they not allowed to? Just because they are gay or support homosexuality does not mean they are worse than us. Perhaps they are not even aware that it’s a sin. If this is the case, I am a far worse sinner than they are and I deserve a much worse punishment because I am aware of my sins and yet commit them full knowing it.

Since when does being Catholic give us the right to put on the “Holier Than Thou” attitude on? Would Pope Benedict approve you punching another outside of the Cathedral? Even if these protesters were to block the entrance to the Church so you cannot attend mass, what right does that give you to hit someone? This is a very juvenile and un-thought out reaction. If attending mass is your priority I am sure you can go to another Church. If a fight is what you wanted, why don’t you go to a bar. It takes 2 to fight.

If we react in a violent why what better are we than those who burnt the embassy because of some stupid Cartoons. The Holy Catholic Church is not going to change its stance on things due to a bunch of protesters in Minnesota.
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long delay in responding but I just read this and I think it's very well put.

someone posted something recently about Pope Benedict being confronted during a talk by some pro-gay activists. he simply bowed his head and prayed for these people, not saying a word, just waiting for them to be removed by security. they were escorted out and the Holy Father went on to deliver a beautiful talk un-affected by the violent, obscenity-screaming protestors. If someone has this link please pass it on.

[YMNolan]

oops...

I should have finished reading this thread! My bad.

Wow, this is one of those arguments that'll make your head explode if you think too much about it.

PCPA2Be said it best... it's gotta be backed by the Holy Spirit and prayer. We have to come off as genuine Catholic Christians... not nazis and not pushovers.

dang, how do you find that balance!

[HisChild]

I just can't picture the Holy Father throwing punches. "get out of my face or I'll throw you a beatin' " He prayed for them, which we all should do.


However, we 'ordinary folk' also don't have security to remove gnats from our midst, either. That greatly helped matters, don't you think?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Feb 15 2006, 02:05 PM']What I mean by their protesting for a lost cause is that rainbow sashers are protesting to see the Church "change" and accept the lifestyle as legitimate. It's certainly a reality that we will follow in Europe's footsteps like we always do and have some silly form of "gay marriage" -- but there will still be rainbow sashers at the steps of the church asking for the church to "change", when it will not.
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Thanks for the clarification. I agree.

[Ash Wednesday]

I the pope!

On a lighter note, speaking of South London, I admit that if need be I wouldn't have a problem with a towering Afro-Caribbean security guard from Brixton asking protesters in a polite but deep booming voice to let parishioners through. Believe me, they WOULD comply without the guard even lifting a finger.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Feb 15 2006, 01:01 PM']So I suppose this means I'm now omitted from the classy dames of phatmass list.  Too bad. I can live with that, but would rather not be branded as a not so "good Catholic" that sympathises with the gay rights movement.

If you could point out the spot where I used a slur calling right wingers Nazis, I'd appreciate it.

If you could also point out where I expressed any sympathy for what the rainbow sash movement stands for, or that I somehow have no regard for protecting the sanctity of the mass, I'd appreciate that, too.

If you want to discuss whether or not Jesus actually physically whipped people when cleansing the temple, and in what context he would advocate physical force, there's another board for doing that.

But given the situation, I had every right to question what people were suggesting. Maybe I was taking what were intended to be jokes too seriously. The thing is, I don't have a problem with making the effort to drive outrages out of the church -- in fact it's my own obligation to take part in it. I just happen to believe that what people were suggesting would only make the situation worse. God gave us muscles, but he also gave us brains.

You want to know how Fred Phelps' church gets the money to travel and picket his "god hates fags" message -- some of his targets which includes Catholic Churches? From lawsuits because of people assaulting him. I happen to know this because he picketed my home parish.

Perhaps using a Hitler Youth analogy is hypocritical of me, considering the fact that I've criticized others on the board for throwing the term "Nazi" around so flippantly, so for that I apologize for my hypocrisy. My point is, I find the "who is the most badass Catholic out there" attitude that crops up at times to be pompous, arrogant, uncharitable, lacking in humility, and in the end, not all that effective. I used to have that attitude during my studies in college, which I believed at the time to be "zeal" --  I look back and find my attitude was an immature embarrassment to the Church.

I've never been under the impression that I was somehow a "bad Catholic" for not advocating beating Big Gay Al in the name of Mother Church, or worse yet, suggesting there are more effective ways of handling the situation.
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"Nazis," "Hitler Youth" - same difference.

Sorry if I came off rude, Ash - this was not really intended to be about you specifically, but more about a general attitude I've noticed on these boards.
My "good Catholics" comment wasn't to imply you weren't a good Catholic, but expressing my frustration that this attitude is not just limited to the godless and irreligous, but is held by many religious Catholics - "good Catholic" types, like those found on Phatmass.

The "gay rights" people wage a relentless war against the Church, and against any standards of morality, yet we Catholics seem afraid to do anything to stand against this, and are deathly afraid of "upsetting" the gay lobby.
What is the result of all this meekness and mildness?
The "gay rights" crowd gains yet more ground and acceptance because it knows people will no longer stand against them.

What ticked me off about your post was comparing people advocating forceful defense of the mass against these ungodly "protesters" to the Hitler Youth.

I am sick of people on the Left constantly calling religious conservatives "fascist" or Nazi-like, and this sounded like you chiming in.
You may not find their methods of "fighting back" prudent, but comparing them to Nazis was neither mature nor classy.

And personally, I find the excessive fear of upsetting the "gay" crowd shown by many on here neither mature nor holy, but simply cowardly.

[Ash Wednesday]

My concerns had nothing to do with "upsetting" gay rights advocates. Does it really take that much to upset a rainbow sasher that takes church teaching alone as a personal attack? Nope. Those kinds of leftists are certainly just as fascist as, well...you know. I personally just don't think unwarranted physical blows are somehow an effective way to "fight back" nor is it the only un-cowardly way to stand up. As for my Hitler Youth reference, Catholics that may have suggested physical force, but don't question what kind of Catholic I am for objecting (though they still may disagree with my objection), do NOT fall under the category of what I was referring to.

I've said my peace.

Unclassily yours,
Ash

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Feb 16 2006, 12:57 AM']My concerns had nothing to do with "upsetting" gay rights advocates.  Does it really take that much to upset a rainbow sasher that takes church teaching alone as a personal attack? Nope. Those kinds of leftists are certainly just as fascist as, well...you know. I personally just don't think unwarranted physical blows are somehow an effective way to "fight back" nor is it the only un-cowardly way to stand up. As for my Hitler Youth reference, Catholics that may have suggested physical force, but don't question what kind of Catholic I am for objecting (though they still may disagree with my objection), do NOT fall under the category of what I was referring to.

I've said my peace.

Unclassily yours,
Ash
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Again, my remarks were more about a general trend than directed toward you personally. I have not actually seen any of this from you prior to the "Hitler Youth" remark, but I have seen plenty of this from others. It seems the more offensive the "gay" lobby becomes with their tactics, the more "sensitivity" Catholics are supposed to show towards them.

I may have misunderstood the "Hitler Youth" reference - I thought it was directed at those on this thread advocating forcibly throwing protesters out ot the church. I myself would have absolutely no problem with using force if necessary to remove offensive protesters at a mass. That is quite a different matter from "retaliatory" violence, or going into gay bars to beat people up.
I'm not really clear who exactly the remark was referring to, but that's ok.

(ps - You're still a "classy dame")

[Ash Wednesday]

Heh... nice to hear I'm still classy... but I'm also human. We are probably in the same boat, really, as far as comments go -- my comment was generally just me being a sardonic smartass, directed towards an attitude moreso than anybody in particular.

Use of force in self-defense -- I don't have a problem with it. (If I did, I wouldn't have a black belt in two martial arts.) I've always felt and have learned that physical confrontation can have its consequences and shouldn't be the first means of attempting to resolve a situation. I guess it would be easier to discuss appropriate means of action in more specific situations, i.e. where these protesters and parishioners are, what everyone's doing, what kind of security measures are in place, etc. But I don't have the energy to do that now!