mulls Posted July 23, 2003 Author Share Posted July 23, 2003 ok, i've seen all the arguments and church father quotes before...i am aware of the arguments for transubstantiation. what dUSt posted was a good start to what i'm looking for. now, since the priest offers a Eucharistic prayer at every Mass, doesn't this prayer need to be 'answered' for the bread and wine to become Christ? we know that God doesn't answer every prayer immediately...why is it such a sure thing that the Eucharist really is what it is, each and every time? Also, did Jesus leave any guidelines for 'how' transubstaniation was supposed to take place? Did he teach the Apostles the 'Eucharistic prayer' posted above? Was that something handed down through sacred tradition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 now, since the priest offers a Eucharistic prayer at every Mass, doesn't this prayer need to be 'answered' for the bread and wine to become Christ? we know that God doesn't answer every prayer immediately...why is it such a sure thing that the Eucharist really is what it is, each and every time?God doesn't answer every prayer immediately? How do you know? What makes you believe God is restricted by time? Wouldn't it make sense for God to transcend time? I hope you don't think God answers prayers like in that movie "Bruce Almighty". hahaha. I don't think he has a problem answering prayers immediately if that's what he wants. He's certainly capable. Let me try to rephrase the question as it pertains to your beliefs and see how you answer it: When one is baptised, how long does it take God to actually make that person baptised? Is it not immediate? Also, did Jesus leave any guidelines for 'how' transubstaniation was supposed to take place? As in the ceremony which leads to transubtaniation? Yes. He did. It's been handed down through his apostles in Sacred Tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 Also, did Jesus leave any guidelines for 'how' transubstaniation was supposed to take place? Did he teach the Apostles the 'Eucharistic prayer' posted above? Was that something handed down through sacred tradition? I would say to reread dUSt's reference to 1 Cor. 11:23-29 and Matt. 26:26-29 (also contained in Mark 14:22-23 and Luke 22:19-20). Please also read John 6 with particular attention to verses 52-70. Please note the division that ensued starting at verse 60. Where else in the gospels did people defect in large matters due to a doctrinal issue? If you are asking for someone to describe the molecular transformation when the priest says "This is My Body", I can only say that it is something that God does without our senses knowing it. "What the senses fail to fathom let us grasp by faith's consent" (Tantum ergo sacramentum) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 When Our Lord instituted the Sacrament of His Body and Blood at the Last Supper, He announced that ordinary bread and wine were His Body and Blood. He instructed the apostles to do this same thing. The Apostles did. If you think that sometimes, the Apostles or their successors do as Jesus instructed, but it somehow fails to take (like a magician failing to pull a rabbit out of his hat) then you just don't grasp the reality, the power, the Love that Jesus extends to us in the Sacraments. Sacraments, validly administered, never fail... A baptized person, validly baptized, is truly baptized. A penitant validly absolved is truly forgiven. The Eucharist validly consecrated, truly becomes the Body and Blood of Christ. The Holy Spirit truly comes upon those being Confirmed. etc., etc., etc. Sacraments are much more than random prayers, which are sometimes answered with a "no." Sacraments are outward signs, instituted by Christ, to give grace. If a son asked his father for an egg, would he give his son a stone? John's Gospel begins, "In the beginning was the Word." The first Bible wasn't written until the 4th Century A.D. Obviously, the Word existed before the written Word, the Bible. Likewise, transubstantiation (the actual changing of one substance into another, while retaining it's original physical appearances) existed from the very first Eucharist. Coming up with a word to define that belief came much later. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Knight, La Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 One of the important factors is faith. We have faith that as the priest prays the eucharistic prayer, using the same words of Christ he is acting, i believe the phrase is, in persona Christi(i apologize for any misspelling). When Christ prayed the prayer it happened immediately, thus when the priest prays in the person of Christ there is no reason not to believe it happens in the same time-frame. THIS IS ALL A PERSONAL TAKE I DO NOT SPEAK IN THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH. sorry needed to get that out loud and clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 The second time Transubstantiation occurred was one the road to Emmaus. Jesus interpreted the Old Testament for them. That would have been amesome to hear all the explanations. But they still did not recognize Jesus. And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight. Then they said to each other, "Were not our hearts burning (within us) while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?" (Luke 24:30-33) Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread.(Luke 24:35) Clearly this is talking about the Eucharist and Jesus was “made known to them in the breaking of the bread”. Compare the underlined section with the underlined words from the last supper. When the hour came, he took his place at table with the apostles. He said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for, I tell you, I shall not eat it (again) until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me." And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you. (Luke 22:14-20) Coincidence I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennC Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 When Christ prayed the prayer it happened immediately, thus when the priest prays in the person of Christ there is no reason not to believe it happens in the same time-frame. ... I have the book but will have to find it, but this act was explained as Christ Himself working through His Priesthood and the Priest, being one with, at each breaking of the Bread. Peace of Christ, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 Cure of Ars, Excellent analysis! I had never thought of that. Yet another Biblical reference to the Eucharist, the True Presence of Jesus! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 Regarding what mulls said about God not always answering prayers immediately, well, in the Mass, why would He have a reason for not always making the bread and wine the Body and Blood of Christ if the necessary requirements were met? See, in order for transubstantiation to occur, the material must be valid (in other words, a priest can't use, say, cinnamon rolls for the bread, nor can he use Coke or anything else for the wine), and he must have the intention of doing what the Church does when he consecrates the bread and wine, namely, turning them by God's power into the Body and Blood of Christ. Furthermore, the priest must be just that -- a priest -- not any regular Joe. Only a priest can consecrate. If all the requirements for a valid Mass and consecration are present, then the bread and wine turn into the Body and Blood of Christ regardless of how holy the priest or congregation is, or how reverent the Mass is said, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 If all the requirements for a valid Mass and consecration are present, then the bread and wine turn into the Body and Blood of Christ regardless of how holy the priest or congregation is, or how reverent the Mass is said, etc. Yes, that's what is known as ex opere operato - the fact that the action is performed, as opposed to ex opere operantis which is dependent upon the state of the person performing the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 As for the second instance of Transsubstantiation, what about the passage (I forget which Gospel it's in) where the Apostles meet Christ on the road and they don't yet recognize him. They then go back to and share a meal. It is then at this instant that they recognize him "...in the breaking of the bread". If that's not an instance of Transsubstantiation and quite possibly the world's first Eucharistic Miracle,then I don't know what is. God Bless! Jp2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 JP2, Read the first post on this page (by Cure of Ars). You guys came to the same conclusion. Good observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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