Off topic about Hitler and the cause of WWII

[TheOliverOrder88]

I am a nerd when it comes to history. I like to think of alternate history.

Here it goes.

During WWI, right before the US entered. The Germans sent a telegramm to Mexico stating that they would give support if they would invade the US and take back the land they lost during the Mexican-American war. Thus delaying the entering of the United States into the Western front.

My thinking is, if Mexico successfully minded the United States and they did not enter when they did, the Germans would have won WWI. In turn, there would be no Treaty of Versailles. In turn, no Hitler.

Is this a little bit far fetched?

[OLAM Dad]

It's certainly no more far fetched than cows flying. :

[Norseman82]

I don't know. What might have happened is that the western front war would have dragged on while the U.S. battled Mexico. Then, the U.S would have gone to the western front.

The unknown quantity in this scenario is the effect of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, which took Russia out of the war and would free the German troops on the eastern front to fight on the western front and whether that would have made a difference there.

[God Conquers]

I find that that unikely.

Mexico is not a major factor, and I wonder if it upport would have gone to the Eastern fronwould have helped delay the US at all. Certainly less support would have gone to the eastern front at first, but it still would have come. In fact it may have made their entrance more likely or forceful.

Let's remember that it was later revealed that Germany was on the brink of collapse anyways at the end of the war.

If we're doing a little speculative history here on the first world war, as a historian (oh yes, I am) I'd say a more interesting question is:

Did stopping the war ultimately save lives?

Would it have been better to roll over and into Germany?

[Donna]

Ultimately tt was a consequence of Russia not being consecrated to the Immaculate Heart by the pope/bishops of the world. Though it may've gone down humanly speaking like Olive says (don't know enough to comment on that).

Paraphrasing here, but it can be found in "Fatima: in Luicia's Own Words". I think from the July 13, 1917 apparition. Again, I am paraphrasing:

"The war [WWI] will end, but a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI ....when you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this the sign" etc;

Historians tend to put the date of WWII' starting *not* during P XI's pontificate, but it did begin in his reign. The "unknown light" was called by scientists "aurora borealis" (IIRC); and was seen all over Europe, including by Sr. Lucy.

[Jaime]

Ok what about this?


What if Superman's rocket had landed in Germany? Would that have made a difference in the outcome of WWII?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 13 2006, 01:22 PM']Ok what about this?
What if Superman's rocket had landed in Germany?  Would that have made a difference in the outcome of WWII?
[right][snapback]885900[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Not really. The rocket landed when he was just an infant and the first comic was in June of 1938. He wouldn't have been old enough to have an impact.

Further, it would depend on where he landed. Had it been in Munich to good Catholics, well...Superman would be cool.

[Didacus]

I think the key to the original question posed is if there is no treaty of Versaille, would Hitler have taken power, and if no hitler, would there have been WWII?


1. The treaty of Versaille definately contributed to the cause of WWII. However, I beleive that the conditions favorable for war in the 30s would still have happened (Great Depression) such that to avert the treaty of Versaille would not have averted the war.

2. The more I read into history, the more I am beginning to believe that Hitler was not as intelligent as he is given credit in history. He's more of a puppet of forces greater than he is that wanted war for financial gain than antyhing else (and some of those forces whee from the US and Britain, who both profitted greatly from the overall campaign of WWII).

And if not Hitler, than another bozo would have been choosen as a puppet.


3. Have you ever heard the french expression, often sung, of;

"Quand les hommes vivront d'amour, il n'y auras plus de miseres, mais nous nous seront mort mon frere."

"When all men will live out of love, there will be no more suffereing, but you and I will be dead by then my brother."

Humanity has not and never will learn its lesson when it comes to war. The war to end all wars is a myth that will forever escape human-kind as a whole. there will always be wars being prepared and waged. So if it would have not have been WWII, it might have been a few other lessers wars all over Europe... but fighting and war would have come just the same; and perhaps to even worse results.



Finally, if superman's comet had landed in Germany it would have made no diffference to WWII since he would have been at best wehn every happened.

[Church Punk]

Yes because we all know the US won world war I!!!!

[Jaime]

Good call Micah!!



[quote name='Didacus' date='Feb 13 2006, 12:38 PM']I think the key to the original question posed is if there is no treaty of Versaille, would Hitler have taken power, and if no hitler, would there have been WWII?
1. The treaty of Versaille definately contributed to the cause of WWII.  However, I beleive that the conditions favorable for war in the 30s would still have happened (Great Depression) such that to avert the treaty of Versaille would not have averted the war.

2. The more I read into history, the more I am beginning to believe that Hitler was not as intelligent as he is given credit in history.  He's more of a puppet of forces greater than he is that wanted war for financial gain than antyhing else (and some of those forces whee from the US and Britain, who both profitted greatly from the overall campaign of WWII).

And if not Hitler, than another bozo would have been choosen as a puppet.
3. Have you ever heard the french expression, often sung, of;

"Quand les hommes vivront d'amour, il n'y auras plus de miseres, mais nous nous seront mort mon frere."

"When all men will live out of love, there will be no more suffereing, but you and I will be dead by then my brother."

Humanity has not and never will learn its lesson when it comes to war.  The war to end all wars is a myth that will forever escape human-kind as a whole.  there will always be wars being prepared and waged.  So if it would have not have been WWII, it might have been a few other lessers wars all over Europe... but fighting and war would have come just the same; and perhaps to even worse results.
Finally, if superman's comet had landed in Germany it would have made no diffference to WWII since he would have been at best wehn every happened.
[right][snapback]885930[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I will disagree with Hitler's intelligence. There are very very few people that can give a speech like he could. And that takes a bit of talent and a bit of smarts to know how to work the crowd.

There were two things in Hitler's favor:

1. Inflation after WWI in Germany was outrageous. People were starving and wanted someone to blame for their plight

2. Hitler spend a couple of years primarily speaking at youth rallies. Once he got the young behind him, his rise to power was inevitable.

Again, if we were to apply it to current events, if muslim nations were fat and fed, there would be few terrorists.

[Tindomiel]

[quote]I will disagree with Hitler's intelligence. There are very very few people that can give a speech like he could. And that takes a bit of talent and a bit of smarts to know how to work the crowd.
[/quote]He certainly was no military genius nonetheless.

[Tindomiel]

[quote name='TheOliverOrder88' date='Feb 12 2006, 03:40 AM']I am a nerd when it comes to history. I like to think of alternate history.

[right][snapback]884585[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]One of my fav occupations too btw!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 13 2006, 11:22 AM']Ok what about this?
What if Superman's rocket had landed in Germany?  Would that have made a difference in the outcome of WWII?
[right][snapback]885900[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Believe it or not, that actually was the subject of a Saturday Night Live skit in the late 1970s (back in the day it was actually funny)! Clark Kent was Kaus Kent, and he was "Uberman". I believe Eric Idle or Michael Palin (I know it was a Monty Python actor) was the host of that particular episode (and played Hitler in the skit), if I recall correctly.

[Tindomiel]

[God Conquers]

[quote name='Church Punk' date='Feb 13 2006, 12:48 PM']Yes because we all know the US won world war I!!!!
[right][snapback]886001[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

This is mainly because they needed to end the war quickly, to try and salvage both sides. Pres. Wilson was SUPER keen on leniency for Germany in the treaty.

Why all this?

The United States financed WWI. And catastrophic defeat doesn't bode well for loan payments.

Just so you know, I'm no conspiracy theorist... and this isn't about conspiracy, just smart finances!