God=Energy?

[Myles Domini]

Once again Paphnutius and Jeff are on the money (voting for the greatest Church Militant was tough with you guys in there : ). Infinitelord what you do not seem to be grasping is that if we are all part of God then God is not transcendent he looses his transcendence and evil becomes part of his essence, as does change and temporality.

Everything that is flawed in us would be equally so in Him because at the very best your ideas are emantionist like those of the Manicheans. This God would have been set in motion by the start of space and time and as such would need a prime mover.

Moreover, does this God even have consciousness? How did He manage to create out of his own substance. All of the classical pantheistic systems create elaborate cosmogny's which have the same conclusion: we're merely an offshoot or a byproduct of God. This directly conflicts the witness of Sacred Scripture and a well reasoned natural theology.

In addition what does grace consist in if we are already part of the divine essence by sharing being with the source of being? The divinisation spoken of by the Church would cease to be a union of grace and become a form of Middle Platonic gnosis if we adopted your view. Salvation could only be conceived of as the stripping away of the illusions of the world in ecstatic apprhension of The One.

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Feb 11 2006, 12:19 AM']If everything is made of enegry then enegry along with the object can be created or destroyed so enegry is not infinite.  [color=red]G[/color]od alone is infinite, also it is a inslut to spell [color=red]G[/color]od in lowercase
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but energy can't be destroyed being that matter=energy can't be created nor destroyed. when an object is "destroyed" it is actualy only being changed in form. for example you can strap a bomb to a huge rock and blow it up. the rock isn't "destroyed" its form is just changed into smaller rocks and dust. the same can be said with something like water, when water evaporates it isn't "destroyed" it only seperates into seperate atoms. With that being said the theory stated in the opining two post could be true, I don't exactly agree with it. I did though want to show the flaw in what you said.

[Laudate_Dominum]

What do you mean by energy anyway? Something like Aristotelian prime matter? Just curious.
That would be a funny way of thinking: God is prime matter. Or the Divine Substance is the fundamental substratum of all physical manifestations. Or God is the measure of change in a closed system, or the sum of the temporal and spatial interaction of forces. Or God is "the force" in some Jedi sense. hehe This is fun.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Too bad all that stuff is heterodox. We aren't pantheists, monists or any of that crrrap

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Feb 11 2006, 09:17 PM']What do you mean by energy anyway? Something like Aristotelian prime matter? Just curious.
That would be a funny way of thinking: God is prime matter. Or the Divine Substance is the fundamental substratum of all physical manifestations. Or God is the measure of change in a closed system, or the sum of the temporal and spatial interaction of forces. Or God is "the force" in some Jedi sense. hehe This is fun.
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im not sure what was ment by energy

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Feb 11 2006, 06:38 PM']what up jeff,

i dont mean to pick at you here but i disagree on a few of the things you talked about. First, the reason matter cannot be destroyed is because matter is made of energy and the energy cannot be distroyed. And also, i see flaw in your anselmian approach since we all percieve things differently. Im not saying at all that god is not objective because i think we can all agree that he is. However, we have the free-will choice to percieve him in false ways and the only right way. Im not saying that I percieve him the right way and you the wrong way. The way I see it........if god is infinite........whether he is energy or not........his consciousness may be what is infinite, but we really cannot define what consciousness is to the fullest.......i dont think that my theory of god being energy contradicts the notion that he is infinite at all.......i would like you or someone else to give me reason why. I dont see how god being energy implys that he is not above his creation and furthermore that he would be just a sum of his creation. Because if im right about energy being infinite, and god being energy then there is no sum involved.
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A couple things in response. First, I am not sure that you are correct in your understanding of matter being "made of" energy. If energy is mass times the squared speed of light, then mass is energy divided by the squared speed of light. Now if "matter" is something having mass, then really matter is [i]not[/i] "made of" energy anymore than energy is "made of" matter.

Secondly, you appear not to have understood my critique. I made a couple points, that I will try to make more clear:

1.) Why should energy be infinite? I see no philosophical reason to conclude this, nor have I heard of any scientist who has put forward such a notion. Every bit of evidence seems to imply that there is a finite amount of energy in the universe.

2.) Energy is either unformed matter (prime matter), pure form, or a holymorphic substance of the two. Let us assume that energy is prime matter. If this is so, then energy is pure potentiality and thus energy cannot be God, since there is only actuality in God. Now let us assume that energy is pure form. If this is so, then it is impossible for you to hold on to your belief that everything is made of energy. Now let us assume that energy is a holymorphic substance with both form and matter. If energy is a holymorphic substance then energy cannot be God, because holymorphic substances are both composite and contain matter. It is impossible for God to be composite since all composites are subject to change while God is immutable, and it is impossible for God to contain matter because, as previously stated, matter is potentiality and there is no potentiality within God.

3.) Either all things are energy or some things are energy. If all things are energy, then God, man, angels, and all of creation are energy, and there is no substantial difference between God and Creation. If some things are energy, then energy is a particular kind of substance. Now this particular substance is either Necessary Substance or Contingent Substance. If energy is necessary substance, then God is energy, but energy does not exist anywhere else in Creation since all of Creation is contingent upon that which is necessary. If energy is a contingent substance, then God is not energy, since God is in no way contingent.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Feb 11 2006, 02:19 AM'] also it is a inslut to spell blah blah blah
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Heh, I like that.

Agnes, out whoring until the early morning hours, was an inslut to humanity.

Edited February 12, 2006 by Cow of Shame

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Feb 12 2006, 04:31 AM']A couple things in response. First, I am not sure that you are correct in your understanding of matter being "made of" energy. If energy is mass times the squared speed of light, then mass is energy divided by the squared speed of light. Now if "matter" is something having mass, then really matter is [i]not[/i] "made of" energy anymore than energy is "made of" matter.

Secondly, you appear not to have understood my critique. I made a couple points, that I will try to make more clear:

1.) Why should energy be infinite? I see no philosophical reason to conclude this, nor have I heard of any scientist who has put forward such a notion. Every bit of evidence seems to imply that there is a finite amount of energy in the universe.

2.) Energy is either unformed matter (prime matter), pure form, or a holymorphic substance of the two. Let us assume that energy is prime matter. If this is so, then energy is pure potentiality and thus energy cannot be God, since there is only actuality in God. Now let us assume that energy is pure form. If this is so, then it is impossible for you to hold on to your belief that everything is made of energy. Now let us assume that energy is a holymorphic substance with both form and matter. If energy is a holymorphic substance then energy cannot be God, because holymorphic substances are both composite and contain matter. It is impossible for God to be composite since all composites are subject to change while God is immutable, and it is impossible for God to contain matter because, as previously stated, matter is potentiality and there is no potentiality within God.

3.) Either all things are energy or some things are energy. If all things are energy, then God, man, angels, and all of creation are energy, and there is no substantial difference between God and Creation. If some things are energy, then energy is a particular kind of substance. Now this particular substance is either Necessary Substance or Contingent Substance. If energy is necessary substance, then God is energy, but energy does not exist anywhere else in Creation since all of Creation is contingent upon that which is necessary. If energy is a contingent substance, then God is not energy, since God is in no way contingent.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff
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Dont you just love Jeff well dont ya, huh?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Feb 11 2006, 10:31 PM']A couple things in response. First, I am not sure that you are correct in your understanding of matter being "made of" energy. If energy is mass times the squared speed of light, then mass is energy divided by the squared speed of light. Now if "matter" is something having mass, then really matter is [i]not[/i] "made of" energy anymore than energy is "made of" matter.

Secondly, you appear not to have understood my critique. I made a couple points, that I will try to make more clear:

1.) Why should energy be infinite? I see no philosophical reason to conclude this, nor have I heard of any scientist who has put forward such a notion. Every bit of evidence seems to imply that there is a finite amount of energy in the universe.

2.) Energy is either unformed matter (prime matter), pure form, or a holymorphic substance of the two. Let us assume that energy is prime matter. If this is so, then energy is pure potentiality and thus energy cannot be God, since there is only actuality in God. Now let us assume that energy is pure form. If this is so, then it is impossible for you to hold on to your belief that everything is made of energy. Now let us assume that energy is a holymorphic substance with both form and matter. If energy is a holymorphic substance then energy cannot be God, because holymorphic substances are both composite and contain matter. It is impossible for God to be composite since all composites are subject to change while God is immutable, and it is impossible for God to contain matter because, as previously stated, matter is potentiality and there is no potentiality within God.

3.) Either all things are energy or some things are energy. If all things are energy, then God, man, angels, and all of creation are energy, and there is no substantial difference between God and Creation. If some things are energy, then energy is a particular kind of substance. Now this particular substance is either Necessary Substance or Contingent Substance. If energy is necessary substance, then God is energy, but energy does not exist anywhere else in Creation since all of Creation is contingent upon that which is necessary. If energy is a contingent substance, then God is not energy, since God is in no way contingent.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff
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i chose part of number 3. That all things are energy......including god, man, angels, demons, etc. but what im saying is that there is a difference between these things and the devine.........not in the flesh but in the consciousness. Angels, Demons, Man, etc. wouldnt exist without god.......but since god gave them a consciousness or their own seperate state of being they have the free-will to do his will or to stray away from it.

[infinitelord1]

The way i came to the conclusion that energy is infinite..........since energy cannot be created nor destroyed there is no begginning or an end to energy.........therfore energy is infinite.

[curtins]

I think the whole law of conservation of energy and matter proves the existance of God- but doesnt prove that God is energy and matter- because energy and matter had have been created- thus proving the existance of a divine or higher being

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Feb 12 2006, 10:48 AM']i chose part of number 3. That all things are energy......including god, man, angels, demons, etc. but what im saying is that there is a difference between these things and the devine.........not in the flesh but in the consciousness. Angels, Demons, Man, etc. wouldnt exist without god.......but since god gave them a consciousness or their own seperate state of being they have the free-will to do his will or to stray away from it.
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Given this, then it is clear that either energy or consciousness is simple substance. If energy is simple substance, then there is no [i]substantial[/i] difference between God and creation - only an [i]accidental[/i] difference (i.e. the accidental attribute of consciousness). If consciousness is simple substance, then you have not chosen 3 at all. Rather, you have said that God is something substantially other than creation, and that energy is simply an accident that God and creation have in common. But this would mean that God is not substantially energy - and that is what you are trying to prove.

This dichotomy can only be reconciled by acknowledging that in God there are [i]no[/i] accidents. He alone is pure simplicity, and in Him all things are One in substantiality. Drawing an ontological distinction between God's Consciousness and "God's Energy" is just as futile as trying to make God's Mercy and God's Justice ontologically distinct.

[quote]The way i came to the conclusion that energy is infinite..........since energy cannot be created nor destroyed there is no begginning or an end to energy.........therfore energy is infinite.[/quote]

This is faulty logic. For one thing, even if we grant that energy is neither created nor destroyed that does not mean that energy is [i]infinite[/i], only that it is [i]eternal[/i]. Moreover, the law of conservation of matter and energy only holds within the system of creation. God, being outside the natural order, can create [i]ex nihilo[/i] as well as annihilate completely. He is not bound by physical laws, since He is their Author and He made them to be binding on Creation, not the Uncreated.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Feb 12 2006, 05:49 PM']Given this, then it is clear that either energy or consciousness is simple substance. If energy is simple substance, then there is no [i]substantial[/i] difference between God and creation - only an [i]accidental[/i] difference (i.e. the accidental attribute of consciousness). If consciousness is simple substance, then you have not chosen 3 at all. Rather, you have said that God is something substantially other than creation, and that energy is simply an accident that God and creation have in common. But this would mean that God is not substantially energy - and that is what you are trying to prove.

This dichotomy can only be reconciled by acknowledging that in God there are [i]no[/i] accidents. He alone is pure simplicity, and in Him all things are One in substantiality. Drawing an ontological distinction between God's Consciousness and "God's Energy" is just as futile as trying to make God's Mercy and God's Justice ontologically distinct.
This is faulty logic. For one thing, even if we grant that energy is neither created nor destroyed that does not mean that energy is [i]infinite[/i], only that it is [i]eternal[/i]. Moreover, the law of conservation of matter and energy only holds within the system of creation. God, being outside the natural order, can create [i]ex nihilo[/i] as well as annihilate completely. He is not bound by physical laws, since He is their Author and He made them to be binding on Creation, not the Uncreated.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff
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Yes you love Jeff you know you do Go Jeff! Go Jeff! Go Jeff!

[infinitelord1]

so what you are telling me is this.........god is not his creation and his infiniteness only extends beyond his creation. This does not make sense to me because i cant see how this is truelly being infinite. I believe that god is everywhere even here in what we call his creation. It sounds to me like you are saying that god is absent in his creation.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Feb 12 2006, 07:39 PM']so what you are telling me is this.........god is not his creation and his infiniteness only extends beyond his creation. This does not make sense to me because i cant see how this is truelly being infinite. I believe that god is everywhere even here in what we call his creation. It sounds to me like you are saying that god is absent in his creation.
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You are deeply misunderstanding the nature of created being and how it relates to uncreated being. Of course you cannot understand God's infinity because His infinity is not the infinity of created essence. Rather what God is provides the template of the infinity of created essence and whatever similarity God shares with the world there is an even greater dissimilarity to make it null and void. Yes God is everywhere but not in the sense that you are conceiving it.

As I said before your ideas are purely Neoplatonist and would undermine the entire Catholic faith since your emanationism would prevent any meaningful understanding of the Crucifixion as redemptive and grace giving. By passing the Immanent nature of God which according to your schema would make for a God who is certainly not impassible, transcendent and the like how can the image of God be restored within us when we're already part of the essence of God? How can we recieve grace to become children of God if we are already part of God? Your ideas would reduce the economy of salvation to being centred on gnosis, on coming to the realisation that we are all god because God as energy is in us all. This would make Jesus not the only begotten Son as the Creeds say but a mere manifestation of the divine essence which is equally present in us all.

This idea whether advanced by Valentinians, Manichaeans, Albigensians or whatever has always been roundly and absolutely condemned by the Church. I would strongly suggest that you read St Augustine's anti-manichean works to help you apprehend the incompatibility of the views your advancing with the Catholic and Apostolic faith.