Colin Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Hi there, Paphnutius makes some interesting points. I recall Adam stating that salvation is not simply a transaction, as some Protestants may believe, but is a life long relationship (I hope I am doing him justice!). I would heartly agree. Salvation is a personal, love relationship with Jesus begun when that person accepts Jesus as their saviour - are born again. This is not something someone else can do for you. You may introduce me to Jesus - witness if you like, but until I accept him as lord of my life, we have no personal relationship - I am not saved. You cannot have a personal relationship for me. Augustine's mum prayed for her son, but until he made the decision himself, he was not saved. Can you repent of a babies sin? Can someone else die to sin and live for Christ on behalf of that baby? "that whoever believed on him should not perish but have everlasting life" - why would you even want to argue for a salvation which required no personal relationship? "Christ in you" is the glory of our faith - not water on you! This simply and beautifully represents what has already happened! It is in and of itself meaningless. That is not to say it is not profoundly important when it is an outward expression of an inward truth. In its proper place, baptism is utterly profound. It is not ONLY a symbol, it IS a SYMBOL of grace. Symbols are important when they reflect and sybolise truths. When people spit on and burn the US flag, Americans are genuinely hurt by this, and clearly those spitting and burning feel something also. If my wife threw her wedding ring on the street and spat on it, I would feel deeply wounded. Not because the ring made us married, or for what it cost me 25 years ago, but because it represents/symbolises our marriage. So, baptism is important, because of what it represents, not because of any intrinsic merit. If baptism can save a baby, why not a sleeping sinner? Sneak into a hospital and baptise some athiest. If the baptism works as you claim, the athiest will wake up changed, filled with the Holy Spirit, repentant of sin. That is what you claim for babies. The Bible teaches you must believe to be saved. Infant baptism says others can believe for you. Adam also asked on what basis/authority I interpret the Scriptures. I would answer Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, that in trusting him at his word, believing on him for my salvation, being born again through him, he has given me his Holy Spirit to indwell me, his Word to read, and that also, we are told in many councillors there is safety, and that the wisdom from above is both humble and open to reason. As I discuss with fellow Christians, as am enlightened by his Holy Spirit, and as I realise my utter dependance upon Him, he guides me. As I come to him, "Lord I love you with all my heart", he will no way cast me out, as I open up his word "Lord, guide me", as I pray and meditate on him, as I also fellowship and discuss and join together to worship him, I am lead. I still remember my own baptism, the love of God flowing through me, knowing I was obeying him, and how much he love me. Would I trade that for anything? No way! God bless, Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Colin, we digress here. I shall make a seperate thread to respond in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 15, 2006 Author Share Posted February 15, 2006 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='Feb 10 2006, 01:10 AM']this thread has actually strayed off topic slightly. personally, i'm only concerned with the Real Presence. that is afterall what your opening post was about, until you switched course to objective vs. subjective grace. so, in order to bring us back on course, i would like a point-by-point rebuttal on this post: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=47214&view=findpost&p=879114"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...ndpost&p=879114[/url] pax christi, phatcatholic [right][snapback]882655[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Colin.....................................i'm still waiting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='Feb 17 2006, 10:06 AM'] [right][snapback]890369[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Sorry I kidnapped Colin to the Baptism thread....I promise to return him promptly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 17 2006, 12:07 PM']Sorry I kidnapped Colin to the Baptism thread....I promise to return him promptly. [right][snapback]890371[/snapback][/right] [/quote] sabatoger : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Help!!! Ive been kidnapped!!! Thank God the ransom has already been paid!!!! Will try to respond as time allows (its hectic in Northern Pakistan right now) - that was "hectic" not "heretic" : Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 27, 2006 Author Share Posted February 27, 2006 take your time bro....................i'll be here whenever you are ready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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