smoking marijuana

[Lil Red]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' post='954294' date='Apr 19 2006, 03:37 PM']Expound please. I would never put the drug to my lips as long as it is illegal, but I fear this is more a social restriction than anything else, so I'm interested (of course, it'd probably be infintly more interesting if you could use an example that doesn't involve burn outs, but those that use it recreationally, as would a Catholic drinking alcohol)

God bless,
Mikey[/quote]okay. i used to use pot recreationally, for a period of about a year. i was not a heavy user, i was a moderate to light user (depending on the day).

the reason i say it promotes a false sense of patience is that i found if i was having a particularly stressful day, i would go home and smoke until i wasn't stressed out (not that much at first, but my usage went up the more i used it). so instead of actually dealing with the problem, or actually being patient with the problems, and thereby using my will and prayers to be patient with people, i used pot.

the reason i think it promotes a false sense of humility was because when you're high, you don't particularly care about things so there again, instead of actually learning humility (which can be extremely hard), i took the shortcut.
-------------------
good article, btw, aloysius.

[MichaelFilo]

Now, I'm not one to recant a position on the drop of a dime (so I won't, as that isn't too intellegent), I have to ask, while it can be used as a sort of escapism (as you mentioned), can it not be, like alcohol a recreational drug?

And I understand the article, Aloysius, but is smoking such a sign of high society, and then, who is need of that posh? There may yet be room for the Cannabis plant.. yet understandably so, it will be abused, like alcohol, and tobacco.. but alas, the fear of something being abused is hardly a reason to not allow it. All I can say though is that I don't think daily use of Marijuana, tobacco, or alcohol (possible exceptions to the last) are ever examples of moderation.

God bless,
Mikey

[zealousrap]

Mikey, I want to encourage you to go back in this thread and read the articles ironmonk posted. If that Vatican flag means anything to you, then you should pay attention to the words of JP2. "Soft drugs" clearly includes marijuana.

Q. Isn't smoking marijuana less dangerous than smoking cigarettes?
A. No. It's even worse. One joint affects the lungs as much as four cigarettes.
(http://www.health.org/govpubs/phd641/)


Ok here is my personal take on the matter. I was deep into the hip hop culture in my city, which included rap battles and smoking weed among other things. Weed was just a part of what everyone did in the hip hop culture. I smoked weed probably every day for a year and a half. Let me tell you people something. Nobody buys weed to smoke in moderation and not get high. That's the dumbest postulation I have heard in a very long time. Also, it's just a quick fix. We are yearning for God, and marijuana is another way of missing the bullseye. When we try to fill the gaps in our heart that can only be filled by God, it leaves us empty...and needing more. It's not sustaining, or fulfilling really.

"Marijuana is not always what it seems. Marijuana can be laced with other dangerous drugs without your knowledge. "Blunts"--hollowed-out cigars filled with marijuana--sometimes have substances such as crack cocaine, PCP, or embalming fluid added."
(http://www.health.org/govpubs/phd641/)

From being on the inside of drug dealing, I can say that this is absolutely true. In fact, it's true most of the time. And even though so many people laugh at the whole gateway drug statement, it also holds true more often than not. People get that high, then they need more...then they need even more..then they move on to bigger and better highs, or sometimes even have to move up to harder drugs to even get high because their tolerance to marijuana is so high.

I believe someone said that if you do it secluded and don't harm anyone else what's the harm? That's balogna. Just like masturbation, it does internal harm to not only your body but it disallusions your soul. Also, we are all individual pieces of the mystical Body of Christ, so win we as a team and lose as a team.

As someone mentioned earlier, is it really worth it? Is the trouble really worth the end result? Think about when Saint Francis said "Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary use words". If we are to live out and represent Christ at all times with our actions, how does getting high reflect that? Do you expect to be taken seriously by people looking at you as a representative of Christ...or by people looking at the Church?

Ephesians 5:6
"Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient"

Ephesians 5:11-13
"Take no part in the fruitless works of darkness; rather expose them,
for it is shameful even to mention the things done by them in secret;
but everything exposed by the light becomes visible,"

1 Peter 5:8-9
Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour.
Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings.

so·ber (sbr)
adj. so·ber·er, so·ber·est

1. Habitually abstemious in the use of alcoholic liquors or drugs; temperate.
2. Not intoxicated or affected by the use of drugs.

vig·i·lant (vj-lnt)
adj. On the alert; watchful.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Of course the CC was referring to marijuana when mentioning "soft" drugs. But they did not say why they are wrong when compared to someone who both drinks and smokes. The Catechism says that these things are legitimate. (I would also argue that while the CC is teaching this implicitly that marijuana is wrong, they withhold the option to one day say that it's not wrong, and that they never "really" taught that it was)

The links that Ironmonk provides are for the extreme. If people smoke pot too much, it will mess you up. But if you smoke and drink too much it will mess you up.

I too have been on the inside of the drug world, and from my experience I can say that a good number of people use MJ recreationally and moderately. I agree it would be ludacris to say people are smoking it but not for psycho effect. But then smoking is for effect. And most of the time drinking is too. Most people will say that these psycho effects are not bad but MJ's is without saying how they are different.

Finally if MJs effect is truly different than smoking, I don't think it's much different than drinking for effect. If this is the case, the only people who think drinking for no effect can say anything against MJ. If health benefits exist for those who drink for effect I don't know what to say. I could speculate that there are probably some good effects of pot, like lowering blood pressure etc but I don't know. I could speculate taht there would have to be some drug somewhere that offers some sort of benefit without harms and with effect, but I don't know. Really most of this comes down to who the heck knows. (and back to my comment on how the CC might change its implicit position, if new knowledge came, I couldn't be that upset if they did, but it's still shady if they did change while now teaching it wrong implicity) It seems like a cop out to say that alcohol is okay because it offers some benefits, so ultimately if someone's going to make this argument, I'd argue that pot has to reasonably thinking offer some sort of benefit.

Edited April 20, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[Lil Red]

[quote name='zealousrap' post='954692' date='Apr 19 2006, 10:19 PM'][b]Also, it's just a quick fix. We are yearning for God, and marijuana is another way of missing the bullseye. When we try to fill the gaps in our heart that can only be filled by God, it leaves us empty...and needing more. It's not sustaining, or fulfilling really. [/b]

I believe someone said that if you do it secluded and don't harm anyone else what's the harm? That's balogna. Just like masturbation, it does internal harm to not only your body but it disallusions your soul. Also, we are all individual pieces of the mystical Body of Christ, so win we as a team and lose as a team.

As someone mentioned earlier, is it really worth it? Is the trouble really worth the end result? Think about when Saint Francis said "Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary use words". If we are to live out and represent Christ at all times with our actions, how does getting high reflect that? Do you expect to be taken seriously by people looking at you as a representative of Christ...or by people looking at the Church? [/quote]so right on...everything you said. thank you for sharing very wise words, and saying it better than i ever could've. to specifically reference the bolded part, i am reminded of the way the devil works. he takes Truth and twists it into a lie. it looks like the Truth, yet it is not. that is why the devil is so successful, because his lie contains parts of the Truth. does this make sense?

[zealousrap]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='954861' date='Apr 20 2006, 06:57 AM']
Of course the CC was referring to marijuana when mentioning "soft" drugs. But they did not say why they are wrong when compared to someone who both drinks and smokes. The Catechism says that these things are legitimate. (I would also argue that while the CC is teaching this implicitly that marijuana is wrong, they withhold the option to one day say that it's not wrong, and that they never "really" taught that it was)

The links that Ironmonk provides are for the extreme. If people smoke pot too much, it will mess you up. But if you smoke and drink too much it will mess you up.

I too have been on the inside of the drug world, and from my experience I can say that a good number of people use MJ recreationally and moderately. I agree it would be ludacris to say people are smoking it but not for psycho effect. But then smoking is for effect. And most of the time drinking is too. Most people will say that these psycho effects are not bad but MJ's is without saying how they are different.

Finally if MJs effect is truly different than smoking, I don't think it's much different than drinking for effect. If this is the case, the only people who think drinking for no effect can say anything against MJ. If health benefits exist for those who drink for effect I don't know what to say. I could speculate that there are probably some good effects of pot, like lowering blood pressure etc but I don't know. I could speculate taht there would have to be some drug somewhere that offers some sort of benefit without harms and with effect, but I don't know. Really most of this comes down to who the heck knows. (and back to my comment on how the CC might change its implicit position, if new knowledge came, I couldn't be that upset if they did, but it's still shady if they did change while now teaching it wrong implicity) It seems like a cop out to say that alcohol is okay because it offers some benefits, so ultimately if someone's going to make this argument, I'd argue that pot has to reasonably thinking offer some sort of benefit.
[/quote]



There are a few points from Ironmonks posted articles that I want to highlight:

"As to the specific health-related aspect, the Church's uncompromising stance is based also on the fact that no distinction is possible between the so-called soft drugs, that is, marijuana, and those commonly considered hard drugs such as heroin. To varying degrees, all these illicit drugs are seriously harmful."

"Insofar as drug use is linked to the search for pleasure, the manual explains the superficiality of this desire. It points out how by giving priority to pleasure seeking the drug user enters in conflict with the reality of everyday life and its obligations.

Pleasure, in different forms, has a legitimate function in our lives, notes the document. But it needs to be ordered according to a correct hierarchy. But with drugs an immediate satisfaction of the desire for pleasure is sought, bypassing the use of our capacities of intelligence and willpower that should regulate our lives."

"In fact John Paul II has referred to pushers as "merchants of death" and warns potential drug users against using substances that offer the illusion of liberty and false promises of happiness."

Like I mentioned before, it's not truly sustaining...it's a cheap trick, whether it's used for pleasure or for escaping.

"To use drugs, notes the Pope, is always illicit because it involves an unjustified and irrational abdication of our capabilities to think, choose and act as persons. It's also false to speak of any "right" to drugs, because we never have any right to abdicate the personal dignity that God has given us. Using drugs, John Paul II has said, not only damages our health but also frustrates our capacity to live in community and to offer ourselves to others."

I want to note the importance of Christ's model of self-giving love; John 15:12-13 "This is my commandment: love one another as I love you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends." How can we serve others to the best of our ability when we too busy serving ourselves?

CCC
1737: An effect can be tolerated without being willed by its agent; for instance, a mother's exhaustion from tending her sick child. A bad effect is not imputable if it was not willed either as an end or as a means of an action, e.g., a death a person incurs in aiding someone in danger. For a bad effect to be imputable it must be foreseeable and the agent must have the possibility of avoiding it, as in the case of manslaughter caused by a drunken driver.

When someone smokes marijuana deliberately, they do so knowing what it will do to them. They smoke it for it's effect on their body. Even with "ceremonial marijuana" in whatever culture it may be, the people still know how it will affect them. People smoke it expecting that getting high will be the result. As described above, it freely abdicates your capabilities to think, choose, and act as persons. The Catechism is still very clear, regardless of whether it named every street drug in the world by name. The point is what the drug does to you...it is a grave sin to knowingly surrender your free will and human dignity, which is what happens as a result of smoking marijuana. The Catholic Church will never simply change it's position. The only new knowledge that would impact anything would be if new medical treatments were found...and the Church clearly states that it is ok to use drugs for strictly therapeutic/medical purposes.

"Now the truth has finally emerged. Scientists have proven that marijuana or THC produces early apoptosis of fast-dividing cells of the testes and of the immunity system.

Q. What is apoptosis?

A. It is a new scientific term, which describes the "programmed cell death" of all our cells as they grow older. Biochemically, it is related to an impairment of DNA synthesis by the cell, triggered from a membrane signal. It also accounts for our original finding reported 25 years ago on the damaging effects of marijuana and THC, its active ingredient, on sperm cells and replicating lymphocytes.

Q. Why is apoptosis so dangerous?

A. Because it is an irreversible biological process, that of cell death. THC gives to the dividing cell of the testes, the spermatozoa, a death signal. It gives the same death signal to the lymphocytes."

Smoking marijuana also triggers an irreversable biological process that inflicts harm to your body.


I would like everyone to please glance over these two pages [url="http://www.abovetheinfluence.com/the-influence/mythbusters.htm"]http://www.abovetheinfluence.com/the-influ...mythbusters.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.abovetheinfluence.com/the-influence/thebrain.htm"]http://www.abovetheinfluence.com/the-influence/thebrain.htm[/url]

I agree that most of the time people drink for effect. I think you might be confused, however. The Catholic Church does not teach that deliberately getting drunk is ok.
Ephesians 5:18 "And do not get drunk on wine, in which lies debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit"
Sirach 31:25-27 "Let not wine-drinking be the proof of your strength, for wine has been the ruin of many.
As the furnace probes the work of the smith, so does wine the hearts of the insolent.
Wine is very life to man if taken in moderation. Does he really live who lacks the wine which was created for his joy?"

CCC
1730
God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

[MichaelFilo]

Hmm, while finally I see a moral arguement, I must push a bit farther, because again I realize that your stories, while indeed moving, are all linked around the abuse of the drug, but that if the same story were told of alcohol no one would find it convincing to remove it, because sure it can be abused, but that it too can be used moderatly. As I said, any drug use on a daily base is a sign of dependence, and of that I say give me none of it.

Tabacco has little more to offer than being a light stimulant (regardless of claims of relaxing you). It probably has about the same effect of a light sugar high (per cigarrete) without the crash. Regardless, no one looking upon our Catholic tradition would suggest that it should be banned completely (even if there is seemingly no reason to smoke outside of the effect, and many reasons to not smoke because of it). The reality is, I can see Marijuana used for it's effect, especially as a sedative (which, unlike drinking, would not take very much, and instead would probably be healthier on your body, and since drinking to the sedative stage would lead to some serious side effects like a real loose tongue and little control over your actions, it's hardly advisable). I think Marijuana could be used without actually reaching that stage, and yet it is soothing. It certainly has medicinal value (as does heroin and other opiates). At any rate, it'll never be for me (mostly because of legality), but I'd like to question whether it could not be used lightly and recreationally (as some do with tabacco, or alcohol).

God bless,
Mikey

Edit: While smoking has serious sideeffects over constant long term use, I'd wonder if the risks are worth considering with use on a monthly basis.

Edited April 21, 2006 by MichaelFilo

[dairygirl4u2c]

Your honesty openness and candor is very refreshing MF.

[zealousrap]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' post='955559' date='Apr 20 2006, 06:50 PM']
Hmm, while finally I see a moral arguement, I must push a bit farther, because again I realize that your stories, while indeed moving, are all linked around the abuse of the drug, but that if the same story were told of alcohol no one would find it convincing to remove it, because sure it can be abused, but that it too can be used moderatly. As I said, any drug use on a daily base is a sign of dependence, and of that I say give me none of it.

Tabacco has little more to offer than being a light stimulant (regardless of claims of relaxing you). It probably has about the same effect of a light sugar high (per cigarrete) without the crash. Regardless, no one looking upon our Catholic tradition would suggest that it should be banned completely (even if there is seemingly no reason to smoke outside of the effect, and many reasons to not smoke because of it). The reality is, I can see Marijuana used for it's effect, especially as a sedative (which, unlike drinking, would not take very much, and instead would probably be healthier on your body, and since drinking to the sedative stage would lead to some serious side effects like a real loose tongue and little control over your actions, it's hardly advisable). I think Marijuana could be used without actually reaching that stage, and yet it is soothing. It certainly has medicinal value (as does heroin and other opiates). At any rate, it'll never be for me (mostly because of legality), but I'd like to question whether it could not be used lightly and recreationally (as some do with tabacco, or alcohol).

God bless,
Mikey

Edit: While smoking has serious sideeffects over constant long term use, I'd wonder if the risks are worth considering with use on a monthly basis.
[/quote]

I'm not really sure what your argument is. I'm guessing the only thing that you are questioning is whether a person can smoke marijuana in moderation and not get high...
Well, you kind of answered that yourself when you said "I can see Marijuana used for it's effect, especially as a sedative (which, unlike drinking, would not take very much". It can't be put into the same category as cigarettes or alcohol, because it is a completely different drug that works differently, regardless of whether it has similar effects on your body. The very next thing you said was "and instead would probably be healthier on your body". You have likely heard it a million times, but perhaps one more won't hurt: there is no such thing as a healthy cigarette...including marijuana.
The Church stands firm that the only time marijuana use is acceptable is for medicinal treatment. If you are still unclear about why we should adhere to this, then I would suggest you take it up with Rome.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I for myself acknowledge that I did not note the use of "marijuana" as a soft core explicitly taught by the Church, at least in the quoted material above. But it's still left to be said why it's worse. All you can do it appears is say just because the Church says, and insist your ways onto other Catholics for that reason....



***I'm guessing the only thing that you are questioning is whether a person can smoke marijuana in moderation and not get high...
Well, you kind of answered that yourself when you said "I can see Marijuana used for it's effect, especially as a sedative (which, unlike drinking, would not take very much". It can't be put into the same category as cigarettes or alcohol, because it is a completely different drug that works differently, regardless of whether it has similar effects on your body. The very next thing you said was "and instead would probably be healthier on your body". You have likely heard it a million times, but perhaps one more won't hurt: there is no such thing as a healthy cigarette...including marijuana.***

No such thing as a healthy cigarette, yet the CC teaches explicitly in the CCC that they are okay to use in moderation. What's your point in saying there's no such thing as a healthy cigarette?

Anyways, there are two points about moderation. One is that it may be possible to use marijuana without pscyho affects, other than light effects like a sedative feel similar to tobacco. So what's the difference between pot and tobacco here? (simply saying they are different doesn't say anything to the point of the matter) The other point is that even if one goes for a pscycho effect, it's no different than a pscyho affect with alchohol from my experience, if done in moderation. So what's the difference between pot and alc here?

The only way you could say anything is if you were one who think even small buzzes from alchol is bad. You'd be in a small minoirty of catholics who think that though. Maybe the minorityies view will prevail one day in the CC? I doubt it. For myself, I'd rather talk to the majority.

While pot may be different than cigarettes and alc, you have yet to demonstrate why pot's worse when used in moderation as noted with my two points. Simply saying they are different misses the point.

Edited April 21, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[dUSt]

There's no hope with dope.

[Vatican Ninja]

Ze pope is dope

[rufiokicks]

Humans are the only animals that even go near marijuana. Instinct tells every other animal to stay away from it though. I'm just curious, all of you are talking about moderation, but I have yet to see anyone define moderation. Isn't that the whole problem here? People want to only smoke it a little, but how exactly do we know where to draw the line between moderation and abuse? Not a single one of you has stated that.

[zealousrap]

[quote name='zealousrap' post='955707' date='Apr 20 2006, 09:27 PM']
I'm not really sure what your argument is. I'm guessing the only thing that you are questioning is whether a person can smoke marijuana in moderation and not get high...
[/quote]

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='883212' date='Feb 10 2006, 03:50 PM']
Thanks.

My best friend from high school up to about age 24 went from hating drugs to trying a little pot one night, smoking it every now and then.... then doing shrooms... smoke a little opium.... now the last time I seen him he's doing eight balls, dealing cocaine, and living a life of pagan orgies. I haven't talked to him since. I got him to stop drinking and smoking pot earlier, but I had to be around him every day to keep him from it. When I got a job that had different hours, all he had was our other "friends" who were all druggies. We normally hung out with about 10 other people, but we'd throw parties with about 40 people on average.

I've seen a lot of people go the route above. It's sad.

There are a lot of people that use it. Satan is working on us slowing with things of pleasure that will dull our wits.

God Bless,
ironmonk
[/quote]


[quote name='simplemama' post='883791' date='Feb 11 2006, 09:30 AM']
I would like to add my 2cents for what it is worth.....

i smoked pot for 11 years....started off as a recreational user, ended up with the tolerance of a 300 lb male (im a 140 lb female)..otherwise TOTALLY addicted.

Satan had his grip on me.

I would highly reccomend Fr. Corapis talk on addictions for anyone whishing to get more info on the subject. For any of you that dont know Fr. Corapi, he is a very HIP and HOLY preist, who confirms that Marijuana is a no no for any person who is truley living life in Christ Jesus.

i mean, come on, could you see St Paul puffin on a joint? How about Padre Pio doing bong hits, i dont think so!

Get REAL, Get the Eucharist!!!!!
[/quote]


Thanks for sharing.

I really believe, only from my experience, and i will probably be labeled as a crackpot for even saying this. (but i allready have such a reputation regardless so i could care less about what you think of me), that there is a DEMONIC ASPECT TO DRUGS, and especially Marijuana.

Marijuana, teaches people that they can escape to their own little fantasy world where everything is nice and peaceful and fake, when life troubles you, to run away, and to be fake. Marijuana teaches you that you never have to grow up and face life, and you can live with your parents for the rest of your life as a little baby.

Marijuana handicaps young men and women from being the adults that God created them to be.

Out of all my friends who did it, i have been the only one to stop, by the grace of God. They are all like a bunch of sixteen year olds who want to cry and complain whenever life happens, and turn into little babies without their weed.

However, i dont really want to make mention about the numerous malignant and depressive suicidal tendancies i have observed amongst young people on drugs.

SHALOM