drinking alcohol

[ironmonk]

more...
[quote][url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt2art2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt2art2.htm[/url]
I. Authority


1897
"Human society can be neither well-ordered nor prosperous unless it has some people invested with legitimate authority to preserve its institutions and to devote themselves as far as is necessary to work and care for the good of all."15

By "authority" one means the quality by virtue of which persons or institutions make laws and give orders to men and expect obedience from them.


1898
Every human community needs an authority to govern it.16 The foundation of such authority lies in human nature. It is necessary for the unity of the state. Its role is to ensure as far as possible the common good of the society.


1899
The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."17


1900
The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect, and, insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good-will.


Pope St. Clement of Rome provides the Church's most ancient prayer for political authorities:18 "Grant to them, Lord, health, peace, concord, and stability, so that they may exercise without offense the sovereignty that you have given them. Master, heavenly King of the ages, you give glory, honor, and power over the things of earth to the sons of men. Direct, Lord, their counsel, following what is pleasing and acceptable in your sight, so that by exercising with devotion and in peace and gentleness the power that you have given to them, they may find favor with you."19
1901
If authority belongs to the order established by God, "the choice of the political regime and the appointment of rulers are left to the free decision of the citizens."20

The diversity of political regimes is morally acceptable, provided they serve the legitimate good of the communities that adopt them. Regimes whose nature is contrary to the natural law, to the public order, and to the fundamental rights of persons cannot achieve the common good of the nations on which they have been imposed.


1902
Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a "moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility":21


A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.22
1903
Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, "authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse."23


1904
"It is preferable that each power be balanced by other powers and by other spheres of responsibility which keep it within proper bounds. This is the principle of the ‘rule of law,' in which the law is sovereign and not the arbitrary will of men."24[/quote]




[quote]The duties of citizens
[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.htm[/url]

2238
Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.


2239
It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.


2240
Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country:


Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45

[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46

The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47


2241
The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.


2242
The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49


When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

2243
Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.[/quote]



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Mercy me]

[quote name='sidemunch88' date='Feb 8 2006, 12:05 AM']Please Ironmonk, tell me where the government gets the right to tell me what to eat and drink? This was just a puritanical abuse of the government's power.
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[/quote]

I am not Ironmonk but I can answer your question.

FYI - the government gets the right to tell you what to eat and drink from [color=red]you[/color]. This is why voting is such an important duty.

As to your opinion that it was a "purtitanical abuse of the government's power" which I agree with you on, the [url="http://www.nccbuscc.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt2art2.htm"]CCC 1898-1900[/url] speaks to the need for community authority and our duty as Christians to obey it.

Ironmonk was correct when he said that we are not called to obey it if community authority contradicts God's law.

[smeagol]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Feb 7 2006, 10:22 PM']If we suffer unjustly then we will have reward in Heaven.[/quote]

doesn't this idea directly contradict supporting the invasion of Iraq ?

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Feb 7 2006, 06:38 PM']Breaking the law, unless it goes against God's law, is a sin.
[/quote]

so women in Saudi Arabia shouldn't be able to drive?

Edited February 8, 2006 by smeagol

[morostheos]

oh gosh, here we go again....

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='smeagol' date='Feb 8 2006, 01:40 AM']so women in Saudi Arabia shouldn't be able to drive?
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EXACTLY. I mean, could you imagine the road repair costs from all those stupid women gettin' smote from heaven for driving? ...although, I suppose the Jeep market would skyrocket....

silver lining to everything, I always say

[Winchester]

Unjust laws needn't be obeyed. However, some of the fall out of drinking illegally was too steep a price to pay and be morally excusable.

The church does support revolution under certain forms of oppression. However, I don't think disallowing consumption of alcohol would qualify. Were communion wine banned, I would say by all means take up arms, but as much as I love Guinness, I don't think I could justify warfare to defend my human right to drink it.

Regardless, I am not convinced we must obey every knee-jerk law having no character of authority. All the quotes point towards "the good" or "justice." It's not simply: there's a law, you must obey it. Tyranny, even petty tyranny, does not command obedience.

[sidemunch88]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Feb 7 2006, 10:34 PM']

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt2art2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt2art2.htm[/url]
I. Authority

1897
"Human society can be neither well-ordered nor prosperous unless it has some people invested with legitimate authority to preserve its institutions and to devote themselves as far as is necessary to work and care for the good of all."15

By "authority" one means the quality by virtue of which persons or institutions make laws and give orders to men and expect obedience from them.

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[/quote]

agreed

[QUOTE]
1898
Every human community needs an authority to govern it.16 The foundation of such authority lies in human nature. It is necessary for the unity of the state. Its role is to ensure as far as possible the common good of the society.
[/QUOTE]

agreed

[QUOTE]
1899
The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."17
[/QUOTE]

agreed

[QUOTE]
1900
The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect, and, [b]insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good-will.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
maybe you missed this one ironmonk

[QUOTE]
1901
If authority belongs to the order established by God, "the choice of the political regime and the appointment of rulers are left to the free decision of the citizens."20

The diversity of political regimes is morally acceptable, provided they serve the legitimate good of the communities that adopt them. Regimes whose nature is contrary to the natural law, to the public order, and to the fundamental rights of persons cannot achieve the common good of the nations on which they have been imposed.
[/QUOTE]


nothing of pertinence here. 1902 on the other hand...
[

QUOTE]1902
Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. [b]It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the [u]common good[/u] as a "moral force based on freedom and a [i]sense of responsibility[/i]":21[/b]

A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. [b]Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.[/b]22
[/QUOTE]

This next one is interesting

/QUOTE][QUOTE]
1903
[b]Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned[/b] and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, "authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse."23
[/QUOTE]
I don't think you read 1903 Ironmonk

[QUOTE]
1904
"It is preferable that each power be balanced by other powers and by other spheres of responsibility which keep it within proper bounds. This is the principle of the ‘rule of law,' in which the law is sovereign and not the arbitrary will of men."24
[/QUOTE]


nothing to do with the subject at hand


[QUOTE]
The duties of citizens
[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.htm[/url]

2238
Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, [u]to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.[/u]
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
2239
It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the [b]common good[/b] require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
2240
Submission to authority and co-responsibility for th
e common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45[/QUOTE]


why did you post this? what does this have to do with [i]anything[/i]


[QUOTE]
[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46
The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47
[/QUOTE]


same question


[QUOTE]2241
The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.[/QUOTE]


...we aren't talking about immigration...


[QUOTE]2242
[b]The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel.[/b] Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49

When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the [b]common good;[/b][u] but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority[/u] within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]2243
Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.[/QUOTE]

we both know I wasn't talking about armed resistance, so please post what pertains to the subject at hand

(emphasis mine during the quotes)

Ironmonk I am not convinced that you read this. I could have sworn you were posting these in [i]support[/i] of me, not against. The catechism speaks for itself

EDIT: I am having issues with the quote deal.

Edited February 8, 2006 by sidemunch88

[Aloysius]

yep... in my previous discussion with Cam I used those CCC quotes at length to prove that there can be such a thing as a law that does not necessarily require you to do evil but is still not morally obligatory because it is outside of the authority of the state.

not drinking alcohol may not be directly contrary to the moral good, but that doesn't mean the state has the authority or the power to force you not to drink it. that would mean that the state has the authority and power to compel every citizen to do absolutely anything it wanted them to short of sinful behavior. no, the litmust test for whether a law ought to be obeyed is not whether it requires you do do something immoral, but whether it fits the Catechism's definition of a "legitimate excercise of authority"

however: I agree with Winchester in this regard-- the formation of the mafia and organized crime was an evil and supporting this by buying their alcohol would have constituted at least material cooperation with that evil and as such would have been sinful.

But if a man in his private house began brewing beers to drink with his buddies in the basement, that would not have been sinful even if against the law.

[sidemunch88]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 8 2006, 09:38 AM']yep... in my previous discussion with Cam I used those CCC quotes at length to prove that there can be such a thing as a law that does not necessarily require you to do evil but is still not morally obligatory because it is outside of the authority of the state.

not drinking alcohol may not be directly contrary to the moral good, but that doesn't mean the state has the authority or the power to force you not to drink it.  that would mean that the state has the authority and power to compel every citizen to do absolutely anything it wanted them to short of sinful behavior.  no, the litmust test for whether a law ought to be obeyed is not whether it requires you do do something immoral, but whether it fits the Catechism's definition of a "legitimate excercise of authority"

however: I agree with Winchester in this regard-- the formation of the mafia and organized crime was an evil and supporting this by buying their alcohol would have constituted material and formal cooperation with that evil and as such would have been sinful.

But if a man in his private house began brewing beers to drink with his buddies in the basement, that would not have been sinful even if against the law.
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Alowishus

I previously asked where the government derives the power to decide what we eat and drink, the basics of life. It seems clear to me that it wasn't the will of the people, as evidenced the the repealing of the constitutional amendment. So where oh where did it come from??? The fact is the government overstepped its boundaries and violated our rights.

[Aloysius]

haha I like the phonetic spelling of my name

you do realize I was agreeing with you, right? if not, re-read my post... yes the government does not have the authority to tell us what to eat and drink. it doesn't fall under a "legitimate excercise of authority" as defined by the Catechism.

I'm just agreeing with Winchester that supporting the mafia and organized crime would be wrong. Organized crime was more than just drinking alcohol even though the government told you not to-- it was a lawless organization that didn't feel itself bound to any laws, even the just ones. Supporting the rise of that organization is a material cooperation in evil. Drinking alcohol while it is against the law to do so, however, was not sinful at all.

[sidemunch88]

Alowishus-

Yes, i see you were agreeing. I don't really know why I quoted you.

I agree that supporting the mafia by buying their alcohol would be wrong. but whose fault was it that mafia got into the alcohol industry at that time? The government. If the hadn't outlawed alcohol, then mafia would never been interested.

[Aloysius]

oh yeah, in the long run I think most historians would blame the puritanical teetotalists for causing the inception of organized crime...

[sidemunch88]

[ironmonk]

Your misinterpretation of the Catechism is irrelevant. You should read it slower.

"Not drinking alcohol" does not go against the moral order or the Gospel.

When wine was made back then it was grape juice that was not pasteurized, which means that it fermented naturally. There were varying levels of alcohol in the wine. If the wine was fresh then there would be hardly any alcohol. There is no reason why pasteurized grape juice would not fulfill the blood.

Read the bible a few dozen times, then read the Catechism a few more times, then you might understand it better.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[sidemunch88]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Feb 8 2006, 12:26 PM']Your misinterpretation of the Catechism is irrelevant. You should read it slower.

"Not drinking alcohol" does not go against the moral order or the Gospel.

When wine was made back then it was grape juice that was not pasteurized, which means that it fermented naturally. There were varying levels of alcohol in the wine. If the wine was fresh then there would be hardly any alcohol. There is no reason why pasteurized grape juice  would not fulfill the blood.

Read the bible a few dozen times, then read the Catechism a few more times, then you might understand it better.

God Bless,
ironmonk
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[/quote]

Hey I'm sorry I haven't read the bible as much as you, or the catechism as much as you. I went through your posts point by point, even the irrelevant ones. And your reply? You just dismiss me because I haven't read the bible as much. Sorry I am not a saint yet. WOW what an intelligent debate. woot woot personally i doubt you even read my post.