DesiringMore Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Q: "You know, as absolutism was that people believed that kings were chosen by God, do Catholic believe the pope is appointed, chosen by God?" ---Oalfa A: "As Catholics, we believe that the Holy Spirit is operative in the Church. Therefore, there is an unbroken succession of appointed men from Peter to John Paul II. The words of Jesus, "Tu es Petrus" echo throughout the ages. We believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth, appointed by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit." ----Pontifex Q: "If the Pope is appointed by God, then how come there have been so many horrible popes, bearing illegitimate children and living extravagantly and completely disregarding the Gospel? " ---Guest A: "The pope is Chosen, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit by the College of Cardinals. However, in all of this both the Cardinals and the Pope have free will. God is giving to a particular bishop the gift of an opportunity to shepherd the Church of Christ. It is an amesome responsibility and a grave duty. The Pope can choose to follow God's will in this process or follow his own will. "And by their fruits we will know them." It's an interesting fact of history that busy thou the bad popes were with their concubines and their wars and their treasure building, they were not very busy writing encyclicals or bulls or enunciating Doctrine and dogma. The Holy Spirit does not abandon the Church and in an odd way, when a pope chooses to follow his own will rather then the Will of God, the Holy Spirit still protects the Church from errors in teaching. That's why you will see that, even though many times bishops and popes and priests and the laity fail to live up to the teachings of the Church, the Church's teachings don't change to accomodate them." ---BLAZEr Then, my next question would be, how do you really know when it is God's will he is seeking or his own? How do you know that the 'Holy Spirit still protects the Church from errors in teaching' especially if the one speaking is not seeking the will of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Because we believe that Christ established a Church that would not be led astray, as promised in the book of Mathew, chapter 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Jesus gave the keys to Peter and his successors to run the Church until He returns. WE believe this because we know God is faithful to His Word. He promised and we take Him at His word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 (edited) You also have to remeber that Catholicsm is a Continuation of Judaism. therefore many things Judaism contined is also contained in Catholicism, but they are fullfilled. The Papacy is not something brand new, it's not something created by man but it was created by God. In Isiaiah 22:20-24 we see the Papacy as it existed in the Old Law. 20 5 On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; 21 I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a (father) (Papa, Pope) to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 22 6 I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open. 23 I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family; 24 7 On him shall hang all the glory of his family: descendants and offspring, all the little dishes, from bowls to jugs. Instead of giving Peter the Keys to the House of David, Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the kingdom of Heaven, also known as the Kingdom of God on Earth. Eliakin son of Hilkiah becomes a "Prime Minsiter" he holds the Kings Authority, this is the same with the Pope, he holds Christ's Authority on Earth. When he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts no one shall open. This is the office of the Pope. As you can see it's very Biblical. Edited December 15, 2003 by MC Just Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Must I point out that Christ himself appointed Judas to be one of the 12 Apostles. Judas turned the Son of God in to be crucified! Living lavishley is but a grain of sand-sin compared to this. He also picked Peter to be our first Pope! The same Peter who denied Christ three times, cut off a dude's ear, and had to be admonished by St. Paul, a Bishop. It's all in God's time, God's hand's, and most certainly God's Divine Plan for humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 i would also add that infallibility has nothing to do w/ how a pope acts as a person. a pope can act contrary to God's Will in every aspect of his life, except one: when he defines a matter of doctrine or morals for the universal church. in this act, and only in this act, is he protected from error by the Holy Spirit. the pope can sin in every other area of his life and Catholics can still rest assured that what he declares is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesiringMore Posted December 16, 2003 Author Share Posted December 16, 2003 i would also add that infallibility has nothing to do w/ how a pope acts as a person. a pope can act contrary to God's Will in every aspect of his life, except one: when he defines a matter of doctrine or morals for the universal church. in this act, and only in this act, is he protected from error by the Holy Spirit. the pope can sin in every other area of his life and Catholics can still rest assured that what he declares is true. That's what is meant by PAPAL INFALLIBILITY right? i think i understand that pretty well...for my Ecclesiology class(the Study of the Church) I did a paper on Catholicism or some misconceptions/misunderstandings to try and clarify what Catholics believed--what was Truth to you....but in 10pages you can only scratch the surface... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 To further elaborate on the Isaiah passage mentioned above... The Isaiah passage was given to show the degree and nature of authority that Peter had, because it also refers to the "keys." I'm not a Bible scholar, so I'll give an excerpt from a Scott Hahn talk: "W.F. Albright, in his Anchor Bible Commentary on Matthew speaks about the keys of the kingdom that Jesus entrusted to Peter. Here's what he says; "Isaiah 22, verse 15, undoubtedly lies behind this saying of Jesus. The keys are the symbol of authority and Father Roland DeVoe rightly sees here the same authority vested in the vicar, the master of the house, the chamberlain of the royal household in ancient Israel. In Isaiah 22 Eliakim is described as having the same authority." Other Protestant scholars admit it too, that when Jesus gives to Peter the keys of the kingdom, Peter is receiving the Prime Minister's office, which means dynastic authority from the Son of David, Jesus, the King of Israel, but also an office where there will be dynastic succession. He goes on to say some other things. "It is of considerable importance," Albright says, "that in other contexts, when the disciplinary affairs of the community are discussed, the symbol of the keys is absent, since the saying applies in these instances to a wider circle. The role of Peter as steward of the kingdom is further explained as being the exercise of administrative authority as was the case of the Old Testament chamberlain who held the keys." Now, what he means there is that nowhere else, when other Apostles are exercising Church authority, are the keys ever mentioned. In Matthew 18, the Apostles get the power to bind and loose, like Peter got in Matthew 16, but with absolutely no mention of the keys. That fits perfectly into this model because in the king's cabinet, all the ministers can bind and loose, but the Prime Minister who holds the keys can bind what they have loosed or loose what they have bound. He has, in a sense, the final say. He has, in himself, the authority of the court of final appeal and even Protestants can see this." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesiringMore Posted December 16, 2003 Author Share Posted December 16, 2003 Scott Haun's book--which one?? My friend, emalouhow, has loaned me her book HAIL,HOLY QUEEN that i am reading right now about Mary... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Desiring More, You can also prove this retroactively. In otherwords, look back through history and point to a Pope ( a valid one) and show how that Pope led the church into heresy (from a Catholic perspective). Popes have led sinful lives, but not a single one has ever taught heresy as a matter of faith or morals. I have several Protestant friends working on this challenge right now, and so far they have come up with nothing. peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 A good book on the topic is Pope Fiction by Patrick Madrid, or you can watch the series of the same name hosted by Patrick Madrid on EWTN.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Pope Fiction, yeah!! That is an amesome book on the papacy, which addresses the myths and stuff that try to debunk the papacy. As for Scott Hahn, that excerpt I posted above was from a talk of his, I believe. But all of his books are really worth checking out. They're interesting, written clearly, and filled with lots of reallly good points. http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/POPE.TXT The above link is the transcripts of Scott Hahn's audio and video tape presentation, "The Pope: Holy Father" as it appears in the "Catholic Adult Education on Video Program" with Scott and Kimberly Hahn. Another link on the papacy which includes a link to Scott Hahn's talk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 If you can invest in the St Ignatius Bibles, edited by Scott Hahn. They are worth the money(you get one book at a time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vianney Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 desiring i am very impressed with your in depth desire to know about our faith. You have shown great charity while here. I pray that whatever your religion is you will be an inspiration to Catholics and Protestants alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesiringMore Posted December 16, 2003 Author Share Posted December 16, 2003 desiring i am very impressed with your in depth desire to know about our faith. You have shown great charity while here. I pray that whatever your religion is you will be an inspiration to Catholics and Protestants alike. Thank you very much...i believe in the WWJD? question...i ask for guidance when i post so that nothing is intended for my own good but for the glory of God!! that i woul not post anything that would be offensive on purpose.... To tell you, i grew up Catholic..about 6years ago, i started going to a Methodist church...but now i am at a Baptist College....you see, it is not the denomination that i desire, but it is God, Jesus in the flesh....Since August I have asked God to open my heart to Catholicism again--did NOT have good experiences in the Catholic church--i'm sure partly due to the fact that i QUESTION everything, my family are all Catholic but not practicing, and i desired more....i think that when i found Christ my junior year of high school i desired so much for more that i could not find where i was so i had to search...who knows, if i would have had a Catholic family who supported me and was there to answer all my questions, i think i possibly would still be Catholic.....but with all denominations there are hypocrites i have found, there are once a week Christians who leave their faith at the door--yet with my friends from CL and CLU i have found that the same desire that is in me is also in them!!! they seek to see Jesus in the flesh through others just as I do....and because God has answered my prayer, i have to be open to what He is placing in front of me.... a professor gave us this quote by Philip Melanchton: "in essentials--unity; in non-essentials--liberty; in all things--charity".....i believe in giving the same respect to everyone no matter if i agree or disagree with them... I think that is what Jesus would have done....:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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