photosynthesis Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Why is the Kyrie the only part of the traditional Mass that is in Greek, while everything else is done in Latin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krostandt Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Because the mass is in the "Latin Rite". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarf Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 I always wondered why it's pronounced "kee-ree-ay" instead of "koo-ree-ay". I'd have to check my Greek book, but I'm pretty sure that's how it should sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tojo Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 We say "keer-eee-ay." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 [quote name='Snarf' date='Feb 6 2006, 12:07 AM']I always wondered why it's pronounced "kee-ree-ay" instead of "koo-ree-ay". I'd have to check my Greek book, but I'm pretty sure that's how it should sound. [right][snapback]876843[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Your proposed pronunciation is more correct, although the subject of ancient Greek pronunciation is debatable. I think it is the transliteration that lends itself to the typical pronunciation. Kurie Eleison might be better for correcting this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krostandt Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 accents change. Why do most people say ay-men instead of ah-men. Or A-vey Maria . . . ho-ra nostray instead of Ah-wey Maria . . . ho-ra no-st-eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 [quote name='Krostandt' date='Feb 6 2006, 12:10 AM']accents change. Why do most people say ay-men instead of ah-men. Or A-vey Maria . . . ho-ra nostray instead of Ah-wey Maria . . . ho-ra no-st-eye. [right][snapback]876848[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree with you on the ah-men vs. ay-men thing (I can't stand ay-men), but Ah-vey Maria is superior to Ah-wey Maria because it is using Ecclesiastical pronunciation similar to Italian pronunciation whereas classical pronunciation is just a construct of scholars. Classical pronunciation of Latin makes me ill actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 [quote name='photosynthesis' date='Feb 6 2006, 12:02 AM']Why is the Kyrie the only part of the traditional Mass that is in Greek, while everything else is done in Latin? [right][snapback]876833[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm not sure why, but I'm pretty sure that ancient Latin liturgies before the fifth century lacked the Kurie. You do find litanies and exclamations using [i]"Miserere Domine"[/i], [i]"rogamus, audi nos"[/i], or some such thing during this time, but after the 5th century the Greek [i]Kurie Eleison [/i]was incorporated into Latin liturgies. This prayer was common to even the most ancient Greek liturgies and is a phrase that occurs all over the place in the Septuagint. But while the [i]Kurie Eleison [/i]was imported from Eastern Liturgies, the addition of [i]Christe Eleison [/i]is particularly Roman. I honestly have no clue why the West switched from praying [i]Miserere Domine [/i]to [i]Kurie Eleison[/i], but it has been going on for well over a thousand years and I kind of like it. Hopefully someone else actually knows the reason why. I could wildly speculate and suggest that it was instituted by some ancient Pope who wanted to express solidarity with Constantinople, but I really don't know. You've stumped this scholar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Well, I just found an interesting quote from Pope Saint Gregory the Great that might be a clue: [i]Someone coming from Sicily has told me that some friend, whether Greek or Latin I do not know, but having great zeal for the Holy Roman Church, has grumbled about my changes, saying: 'Why do you wish to amalgamate with the Church of Constantinople by following its customs in all things?' But to him I say: 'Which of its customs do we follow?' He responds: 'Because the Kyrie eleison is sung.' But we have not nor do we sing the Kyrie eleison as the Greeks do, for among the Greeks all sing it at the same time, whereas among us the clergy sing it and the people respond. We all sing Christe eleison as many times [as Kyrie eleison], and the Greeks do not. Finally, in daily masses we omit the other things which are usually sung, and sing only Kyrie and Christe eleison, so that we might spend a little more time in this prayer of supplication. [/i] - Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Epistle 9:26 Maybe my wild speculation was on the right track. This does seem to support my idea of the Pope wanting to make changes that express a solidarity with the Eastern Churches. But then again it kind of goes against such an idea too.. Oh well, maybe it's just one of those things that we have to answer with, "it's a mystery". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted February 6, 2006 Author Share Posted February 6, 2006 woohoo! Do I get a prize for stumping you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 [quote name='photosynthesis' date='Feb 6 2006, 12:33 AM']woohoo! Do I get a prize for stumping you? [right][snapback]876856[/snapback][/right] [/quote] hahaha! there should be something like that set up. That would be cool. haha but considering that I'm not that hard to stump really, maybe I'd be in big trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tojo Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 [quote name='photosynthesis' date='Feb 6 2006, 02:33 AM']woohoo! Do I get a prize for stumping you? [right][snapback]876856[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krostandt Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 I will say though, based on other ancient languages, that classical pronunciation does seem to be correct. Also, if you read poety, classical latin fits in better than ecclesiastical. Difference in opinion, I reckon. Classical and Ecclesastical and in twain they shall never meet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted February 6, 2006 Author Share Posted February 6, 2006 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Feb 6 2006, 02:36 AM']hahaha! there should be something like that set up. That would be cool. haha but considering that I'm not that hard to stump really, maybe I'd be in big trouble. [right][snapback]876858[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I should at least get a T-shirt or a coffee mug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted February 6, 2006 Author Share Posted February 6, 2006 what's the difference between classical and ecclesiastical Latin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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