STILLBORN BABIES?!

[KnightofChrist]

[color=red]A unborn Child that is aborted or that is stillborn goes to heaven no doubt! They are innocent only having origal sin, God, being a just and wise and mercyful God is not going to send these children to hell or "Limbo"[/color]

[color=blue]StThomasMore - My kind sir, There IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE IN AN ABORTION! The mom probably dosent care about the salvation of her infant's soul if the is aborting the infant! you sir, are falling into heresy by believing that.[/color]


[color=red]I am falling into heresy? Yet you are the one denining the Popes after 1965. It is not heresy to believe a innocent child goes to heaven. The mother may not care for the salvation of the child but God does He Desires for the child to be baptized He Desires for the child to go to heaven. Since there was no way the child could be baptize it is not the fault of the child that she or he was not, so God being mercyful would not and does not punish the child. God is not going to punish a wee babe. God will not abort their soul. There is no limbo it does not exist and God does not punish inocents or send them to hell.[/color]

Edited February 4, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[missionseeker]

[quote]The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."
Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point. [/quote]

that's before 1965.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Back to the matter at hand...Do you conceed that the CCC is authoritative? If so then please reconcile the Baltimore Catechism with the CCC. [/quote]

The CCC is partially not authoritive. It was NOT NEEDED IN THE FIRST PLACE! look at all the Catechisms we already had! for the beginner: The Baltimore Catechism. For More Intermediate: The Catechism of St Pius X. And for the more well-read: The Catechism of the Council of Trent. The Catechism of the Council of Trent is amazing! it is probably the best Catechism you can buy! It is 25 times better that the CCC and it is about the same thickness! You should all really get a refund for your CCC and get instead the CCT!

[rkwright]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 4 2006, 12:32 AM']www.fisheaters.com
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well theres your problem... you've been catechized by a group on the internet. I never knew such extremist groups even existed until I saw on here and some other websites.

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Feb 4 2006, 12:46 AM'][color=red]A unborn Child that is aborted or that is stillborn goes to heaven no doubt! They are innocent only having origal sin, God, being a just and wise and mercyful God is not going to send these children to hell or "Limbo"[/color]

[color=blue]StThomasMore - My kind sir, There IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE IN AN ABORTION! The mom probably dosent care about the salvation of her infant's soul if the is aborting the infant! you sir, are falling into heresy by believing that.[/color]
[color=red]I am falling into heresy?  Yet you are the one denining the Popes after 1965.  It is not heresy to believe a innocent child goes to heaven.  The mother may not care for the salvation of the child but God does He Desires for the child to be baptized He Desires for the child to go to heaven.  Since there was no way the child could be baptize it is not the fault of the child that she or he was not, so God being mercyful would not and does not punish the child.  God is not going to punish a wee babe.  God will not abort their soul.  There is no limbo it does not exist and God does not punish inocents or send them to hell.[/color]
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I think Myles pointed out on a different thread one time that these aborted babies could be cases of Baptism by Blood? I seem to remember him saying that...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Feb 3 2006, 11:50 PM']I think Myles pointed out on a different thread one time that these aborted babies could be cases of Baptism by Blood?  I seem to remember him saying that...
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I agree. And I would think they where also martyrs that die for the True faith making them true martyrs.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 3 2006, 11:48 PM']The CCC is partially not authoritive. [/quote]Well we are making head way. I fail to see how something not being needed renders it non-authoritative. I will not aruge whether it was needed or not, but why were there so many if the CCT is so good?

Thanks mission for the post on EENS.

The point is Thomas that Limbo falls into theological speculation where there is currently a legitimate diversity. If you believe there is a Limbo, fine. I am not going to argue for or against it because I do not feel like I am fully qualified to do either side justice. But know this: do not state it so matter of factly unless you are going to cite Fathers, Encyclicals, Canons of Councils, etc...and are able to provide a through and through defense rather than saying it is in Tradition somewhere. The current pope has called together theologians to form a committee to decide on this issue. Regardless of what they rule as the outcome I hope that you will assent your will and intellect to it.

Side note: You need to learn to be more tactful about speaking of popes after a certain date. The Spirit still guides and protects Holy Mother Church as much now as at the beginning. You may not like what they have done since VatII, but that does not mean that you can say before was gold and after rubish except for ex cathedra via the pope.

[missionseeker]

EDIT: Fr. Feeney was excommunicated in 1953 for disciplinary reasons, not because of his teachings. Thus when the excommunication was lifted, the Holy Office's condemnation of his teachings (1949) was not. This is an important error made by many Feeneyites who believe that the lifting of Fr. Feeney's excommunication justifies their belief in his condemned interpretation of EENS.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]I am falling into heresy? Yet you are the one denining the Popes after 1965. It is not heresy to believe a innocent child goes to heaven. The mother may not care for the salvation of the child but God does He Desires for the child to be baptized He Desires for the child to go to heaven. Since there was no way the child could be baptize it is not the fault of the child that she or he was not, so God being mercyful would not and does not punish the child. God is not going to punish a wee babe. God will not abort their soul. There is no limbo it does not exist and God does not punish inocents or send them to hell.[/quote]

I, sir, am not denying the Popes! I firmly believe that Popes Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI are legitimate Popes. I just dont always like what they say, and if it is not infallable then I, under the pain of sin, dont have to listen.


[quote]well theres your problem... you've been catechized by a group on the internet. I never knew such extremist groups even existed until I saw on here and some other websites. [/quote]
my goodness! Fisheaters isnt an extremist group! and it might as well be called "fisheater" because there's only one person who runs the site! The Webmistress is just a "plain old Catholic lay woman" who wants to evangelize and tell others about how wonderful the Traditional Latin Mass and other Traditional Sacraments are! And no the site dosent "catechize" me, I go to my trusty Baltimore and Trent Catechisms for that.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Feb 3 2006, 11:50 PM']I think Myles pointed out on a different thread one time that these aborted babies could be cases of Baptism by Blood?  I seem to remember him saying that...
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You would have to prove that they died for the faith. [quote]1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

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[missionseeker]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 4 2006, 12:54 AM'] The current pope has called together theologians to form a committee to decide on this issue. Regardless of what they rule as the outcome I hope that you will assent your will and intellect to it.

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Is this the same one? Was it Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict?
[quote]Meeting Nov. 28-Dec. 2 at the Vatican, the International Theological Commission, a group of theologians led by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger until his election as Pope Benedict XVI, completed its work on a statement regarding "the fate of babies who have died without baptism."[/quote]

[missionseeker]

And if it is the same one, would that count for the Holy Father having something to do with? (referring to Qfnol's post. )

[Resurrexi]

[quote]I agree. And I would think they where also martyrs that die for the True faith making them true martyrs. [/quote]

ha! they are by no means martyrs! I hate abortion just as much as you! I find it evil and disgusting and if it werent against the rules of this board to use profanity I would go on to cuss about it! Here are some examples of true martyrs: St Lucy, St Agnes, St Thomas More, St John Fisher, Louis XVI King of France, Marie Antoinette Queen of France! come on, really! Those people that I named died for Christ! those babies didnt! The aborted are dying because their parents believe that sex is more important that life!

[missionseeker]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 4 2006, 01:02 AM']ha! they are by no means martyrs! I hate abortion just as much as you! I find it evil and disgusting and if it werent against the rules of this board to use profanity I would go on to cuss about it! Here are some examples of true martyrs: St Lucy, St Agnes, St Thomas More, St John Fisher, Louis XVI King of France, Marie Antoinette Queen of France! come on, really! Those people that I named died for Christ! those babies didnt! The aborted are dying because their parents believe that sex is more important that life!
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All the baby boys that Herod had killed are martyrs. They died for (or because of) Christ

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 3 2006, 11:55 PM']I, sir, am not denying the Popes! I firmly believe that Popes Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI are legitimate Popes. I just dont always like what they say, and if it is not infallable then I, under the pain of sin, dont have to listen.
my goodness! Fisheaters isnt an extremist group! and it might as well be called "fisheater" because there's only one person who runs the site! The Webmistress is just a "plain old Catholic lay woman" who wants to evangelize and tell others about how wonderful the Traditional Latin Mass and other Traditional Sacraments are! And no the site dosent "catechize" me, I go to my trusty Baltimore and Trent Catechisms for that.
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From Catholic Culture.com

"Fidelity: CAUTION || Resources: Good || Useability: Excellent

Fish Eaters is a personal apologetical site which targets non-Catholic Christians, converts and Catholics. Its stated purpose is to bring people to Christ and His Church. Though there are many good resources to be found here, they are seriously marred by the webmaster's ultra-tradionalist views. Throughout the site, the language consistently implicitly and explicitly rejects the New Mass as well as the authority of Second Vatican Council.

"The site as a whole implicitly and explicitly rejects the Novus Ordo Mass. "

The section on the Mass entitled "The Mass I: Introduction" states:

In this section, I focus solely on the traditional Latin Mass based on the Missal of 1962 which is used by the S.S.P.X. and by the F.S.S.P. After much study, I've come to the conclusion that, validity issues aside, the "Novus Ordo Mass" is inherently, tragically flawed, something my instincts and "common sense" have told me since I was a child. The very name of this Mass -- "Novus Ordo," i.e., "New Order" -- should make anyone with a true Catholic nature cringe, and its effects are so incredibly sad it almost hurts to think about it. It has turned out to be a "New Mass" for a "New Religion" -- and that religion ain't Catholic."

In another place, the webmaster declares,

"We must stop supporting the that which reeks of "the spirit of Vatican II," i.e., modernism -- the heterodox seminaries, the "Novus Ordo masses," . . . We must support only the true Catholic Faith -- the Faith of the Fathers -- with its traditional Latin Mass, traditional Sacraments, and traditional teaching." (The Church as Battered Bride)

Notice that "Novus Ordo masses" is placed in quotation marks, implying that the New Mass is a Mass in name only. There are many other articles and links, especially in the section "For Catholics," that support this position.
Examples include:

* A Brief Defense of Traditionalism
* Conservative -vs- Traditional Catholicism
* Links to The New Mass I: Inalienable Right or Inferior Rite? and The New Mass II: Our Faith in Hymn at Catholic Apologetics International
* Links to material from the Society of St. Pius X

"All of the material and resources offered are pre-Vatican II."

A telling example of this is in the section dedicated to the writings of the Popes. Though most of the major encyclicals pre-1963 are included, not a single document since the Council is included. The same is true of other resources. The only exception to this is the documents of the Council itself.

This "dictionary" is filled with sarcasitic remarks about the New Mass, current Church terminology, and the post-Conciliar Church. The overall effect is one of encouraging Catholics to disregard the authority of the Church on these issues.

Here are a few examples:

* "A is Not A" and "2+2=5" -- the kind of liberal or neo-conservative logic it takes to reconcile, for ex.: Mortalium Animos with the Assisi Events; Quo Primum and Mediator Dei with the Novus Ordo Mass; Mirari Vos with the entire Vatican II experiment and idea that the Church requires "renewal"; Testem Benevolentiae Nostra and Quas Primas with the post-conciliar view of government; Unam Sanctam with post-conciliar false ecumenism; and so forth.
* Antisemite -- someone Jews hate. It could be someone who doesn't like Zionism or American funding of Israel. Or it could be someone who knows what the Talmud says. Whatever it is, whoever gets the label is expected to act guilty and apologize profusely lest his career, reputation, and any realistic hopes of fulfilling political ambition be destroyed.
* Conscience -- . . . Traditional Catholic:
"My informed conscience and years of study tell me that what's been going on in the Church since Vatican II is evil."
* Man -- the new god. This concept is a result of a refocus from theology to anthropological philosophy. The new trend in "Vatican thinking" starts with man himself instead of starting with the God of revelation. It glosses over the reality of original sin and assumes that if man just gazes at himself long enough, he will then seek out God (Who may be found in any religion, but only "most fully" in the neo-Catholic religion).
* There are also attacks on terms such as Liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist, priests who wished to be called by their given names, and much more.

"Unorthodox Catholic links"

Here are just a few examples:

* Catholic Apologetics International
* Diocese Report
* Una Voce
* The Remnant
* Chistian Order
* Christus Rex
* Society of St. Pius X "