qfnol31 Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 3 2006, 11:41 PM']Those theologians were called by the Holy Father to discuss this issue. [right][snapback]875273[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Right, but they still have no authority in the beliefs of the Church. I asked a professor here (he's got a doctorate from the Gregorian Pontifical school in Rome, so I trust him on this) and he said only if the Holy Father himself added would it be in any way authoritative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 [quote]Moreover, that those who die in original sin, without ever having contracted any actual sin, are deprived of the happiness of heaven is stated explicitly in the Confession of Faith of the Eastern Emperor Michael Palæologus, which had been proposed to him by Pope Clement IV in 1267, and which he accepted in the presence of Gregory X at the Second Council of Lyons in 1274. The same doctrine is found also in the Decree of Union of the Greeks, in the Bull "Lætentur Caeli" of Pope Eugene IV, in the Profession of Faith prescribed for the Greeks by Pope Gregory XIII, and in that authorized for the Orientals by Urban VIII and Benedict XIV[/quote] It says right there that those who die in Original Sin cannot go to Heaven. [quote]What would you say is unauthoritative about/in the Catechism?[/quote] It is just like the Vatican II Documents: non-dogmatic in the first place, containting error, and ambiguous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 okay on the authority of the CCC? This is form the Apostolic Constitution Fedei Depositum. [quote]The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom! The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus' disciples (cf. Lk 22:32 as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith. Therefore, I ask all the Church's Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes. This catechism is not intended to replace the local catechisms duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Episcopal Conferences, especially if they have been approved by the Apostolic See. It is meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechisms, which take into account various situations and cultures, while carefully preserving the unity of faith and fidelity to catholic doctrine. At the conclusion of this document presenting the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I beseech the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Incarnate Word and Mother of the Church, to support with her powerful intercession the catechetical work of the entire Church on every level, at this time when she is called to a new effort of evangelization. May the light of the true faith free humanity from the ignorance and slavery of sin in order to lead it to the only freedom worthy of the name (cf. Jn 8:32): that of life in Jesus Christ under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, here below and in the Kingdom of heaven, in the fullness of the blessed vision of God face to face (cf. 1 Cor 13:12; 2 Cor 5:6-8)! Given 11 October 1992, the thirtieth anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, in the fourteenth year of my Pontificate. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 StThomasMore, So only dogma is authoritative? I have an old, old thread you should read. I cannot find error in Vatican II. Have you read the documents or tracts against it? I've read both, and honestly I've found many of the reports against it lacking any understanding of the Church (Take SSPX for example. I have a quote from them in an email that doesn't answer a single question, and I'm willing to post that if you want.) Now, as for your response, it says those people said that. It is the opinion of a few individuals...you'll have to come up with some more substantial stuff. As to ambiguous, I can't think of them as so much as many people make them out to be. In fact, I bet the original disagreement was over a silly little word (and I'm not being sarcastic, I meant the word "subsists") and not the whole of the documents. Plus, as an American, you have a biased view that needs to see the documents in light of European terms as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 [quote]QUOTELimbo is not the same as Purgatory. It does not exist now, or, if it does, is only for little children who have never committed actual sin and who have died without Baptism. This is Limbus Infantium in the Baltimore Catechism, #4. [/quote] no, this is what the Baltimore Catechism No. 4 has to say about Limbus Infantium: [quote]Infants who die without baptism of any kind do not suffer the punishments of those who die in mortal sin. They may enjoy a certain natural happieness, but they will not enjoy the supernatural happiness of heaven.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cow of Shame Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 4 2006, 12:19 AM'](it is a mortal sin to prospone baptism more that a month) [/quote] Anyone have a link to back this up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 [quote name='Cow of Shame' date='Feb 3 2006, 11:52 PM']Anyone have a link to back this up? [right][snapback]875294[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That's what I was wondering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 A unborn Child that is aborted or that is stillborn goes to heaven no doubt! They are innocent only having origal sin, God, being a just and wise and mercyful God is not going to send these children to hell or "Limbo". Limbo doesnt exist, it was just a theroy. In the case of Abortion it is not the childs fault he or she could not be baptized, and God being just, wise and mercyful is not going to be unjust unwise and unmercyful and send these poor babes to hell for something that was forced apond the children by mass murders. In the case of a stillborn, God being the creator of life chose the child to come home to heaven. and God being just, wise and mercyful is not going to be unjust unwise and unmercyful and send these poor babes to hell for something He choose to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 3 2006, 10:50 PM']no, this is what the Baltimore Catechism No. 4 has to say about Limbus Infantium: [right][snapback]875291[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Now reconcile that with the CCC and the current pope. Here is a hint: if it does exist. That means it it speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 3 2006, 11:50 PM']no, this is what the Baltimore Catechism No. 4 has to say about Limbus Infantium: [right][snapback]875291[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Actually, it says both. And more in between. I've read that section a few times...I'm working on an editorial for my school on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 [quote]in the fourteenth year of my Pontificate. [/quote] omgosh! Correctly, it is "In the fourteenth year of OUR Pontificate! I hate it when people put "my" for "our"! [quote]Take SSPX for example. I have a quote from them in an email that doesn't answer a single question, and I'm willing to post that if you want[/quote] I would LOVE for you to post it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 3 2006, 11:45 PM']It says right there that those who die in Original Sin cannot go to Heaven. It is just like the Vatican II Documents: non-dogmatic in the first place, containting error, and ambiguous [right][snapback]875280[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Kindly READ the preface to the CCC, where the Holy Father announces its definitive nature. Tread lightly on the edge of the chasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 3 2006, 10:55 PM']Kindly READ the preface to the CCC, where the Holy Father announces its definitive nature. Tread lightly on the edge of the chasm. [right][snapback]875300[/snapback][/right] [/quote]I think I acutally posted it above for easy read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazymaine catholic Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 is it even possible to have natural happiness without God? i don't think i could ever be happy without God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 Cappie posted something about this but I can't find it. It was like a week or two ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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