STILLBORN BABIES?!

[qfnol31]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 4 2006, 07:43 PM']The Church has supported Limbo in the past
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Even the SSPX disagrees with you. If you want the link, I can give it to you, but if you go to the US homepage and go down to Catholic FAQ on the left and search for Theological and then Limbo, you'll find this. I hope that the fact that they deny it helps you some.

[quote]Where will unbaptized children (and aborted babies) go on the day of the Last Judgment?

[b]It is [i]not[/i] a doctrine of Faith that children dying with original sin only on their soul go to a special place or state called the children’s Limbo. However, it is the common opinion of the theologians.[/b] This is based upon the teaching of Pope Innocent III (and the Fathers of the Church) on the effects of baptism, in which he has this to say:

    "The punishment of original sin is deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell." (Maiores Ecclesiae causas, Dz 780).

The state of Limbo is consequently a suffering from the pain of loss, or separation from God, but not of the pain of the senses. As Saint Thomas Aquinas teaches (De malo 5, 3), such a pain of loss is compatible with a certain natural happiness. At the last judgment, when the bodies will rise to share in the punishment or reward of heaven or hell, the bodies of those who are in Limbo will also rise. Although separated from God, in which way they share the punishment of the damned in hell, they will not be tormented by remorse nor will they suffer the pain of the sense which the damned suffer forever in hell.[/quote]

(I added emphasis).

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 4 2006, 07:52 PM']They didnt just "decide" to believe in limbo! The Church supported Limbo! If you say limbo dosent exist, then you are saying that all those who die, deprived of any of the three types of baptism, burn in Hell.
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Quite a few people and myself have shown you where a few documents, which you would consider authoritative, have denied Limbo, placing it as maybe a mere possibility.

Again, I have no problem with you believing in it, but it is wrong to call those who don't heretics, unless you yourself give the name to the Baltimore Catechism, the SSPX, and the Holy Father.

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 4 2006, 08:04 PM']Well, I believe that all who are not baptized by water, blood, or desire cannot go to heaven. I believe those who committed no personal sin go to limbo. I believe that those who are not baptized by water, blood, or desire and committed personal sin burn in Hell. I could say that all those who were not baptized and committed no personal sin burned in hell, but I do not think God would allow that.[right][snapback]875937[/snapback][/right]
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Right, and what I'm arguing is that you do not know for sure whether or not any unborn baby has been Baptized by desire.

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 4 2006, 08:44 PM']If I died right now I would go to Purgatory.
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I do believe you need to be careful in this, because I'm pretty sure Thomas was uncertain about this himself.

Now, all that said, I might myself believe in Limbo (I have no definitive stance), and I'm not saying you shouldn't...Rather, unless the Holy Father or a council comes out and says otherwise, I think it's great that you do believe in the Limbus Infantium.

What I am saying, however, is that you cannot call those who don't believe in it heretics. Also, you cannot establish who has been Baptized by desire or not. As the Church herself says, we entrust this to God for no one can say either way.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Feb 5 2006, 10:00 AM']I don't think it's fair or accurate to say that those have no place in this thread. [/quote]I did not say that they have no place, but they are indeed tangents. Speaking about Limbo does not really necessitate talking about the NO Mass and altars does it? If we follow your line of thinking we must then discuss everything if we are to disucss anything. My point was that while they may be revelent another thread would probably be more beneficial since we are attempting to tackle so much in one space.

[qfnol31]

I think I had something to do with some of those tangents, and Baptism of Desire and Relgious Assent are both important to this discussion, in my opinion.

The Novus Ordo, on the other hand, is probably not.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Feb 5 2006, 02:16 PM']I think I had something to do with some of those tangents, and Baptism of Desire and Relgious Assent are both important to this discussion, in my opinion. 

The Novus Ordo, on the other hand, is probably not.
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[/quote]Oh I agree they are important, and do not worry about the NO thing. We all get off topic and I was just trying to streamline things.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 5 2006, 05:51 PM']Oh I agree they are important, and do not worry about the NO thing. We all get off topic and I was just trying to streamline things.
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Me too. That is why I started my whole retort with this thread is convoluted.