SSPX

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Tindomiel' date='Feb 14 2006, 09:30 AM']Not all traditionalists are in schism.  However, the leaders of SSPX have been officially declared in schism, although the other members of the society have not, I believe been declared such.
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It is stated in another excommunication, I believe by The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, that those who knowingly participate in SSPX are automatically excommunicated. I can look up the quote if you like.

[Tindomiel]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Feb 14 2006, 12:13 PM']It is stated in another excommunication, I believe by The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, that those who knowingly participate in SSPX are automatically excommunicated.  I can look up the quote if you like.
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That would be cool. I'd like a little more solid evidence to back up my case. All I know now I got form the book " More Catholic Than the Pope?".

[Donna]

A question I've been asking for a long time, and no one (anywhere) has answered it: Why would the Vatican allow an excommunicated schismatic preach in St. Peter's as Bishop Fellay did on the 2000 SSPX Roman Pilgrimage?

If that answer is "because of the Vatican's ecumenical outreach" then everyone should be happy. The SSPX is just another sect to dialogue with and respect, not to treat as some erring "offspring" with anger and anathemas.

Treat 'em like the Lutherans and the Jews and the moslems....allow their churches to be built (in Rome) and visit them like the mosque and temple are visited by Catholic Cleregy...

[thessalonian]

Donna,

Those who are ammicable toward the Church we can treat with a certain amount of respect. However when my brother comes in to my house and starts bashing the pope up and down and trashing vatican II and the novus ordo mass in front of my wife and kids, I will politely ask him to leave. If he continues I will throw him out or call the cops or whatever I have to do.

I hope the difference is clear.

[qfnol31]

In that respect, I very much agree. They take a lot of flack sometimes, but no one seems to realize they're at their third generation.

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='Tindomiel' date='Feb 14 2006, 09:30 AM']Not all traditionalists are in schism....
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Correct. And, it should be pointed out that Bp. Rifan and various members of the FSSP all pretty much have grave misgivings about the Novus Ordo Mass. So, one does not have to buy into the neo-Catholic position and ecclesiology in order to not be in schism.

[Dave]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 14 2006, 02:27 PM']And, it should be pointed out that Bp. Rifan and various members of the FSSP all pretty much have grave misgivings about the Novus Ordo Mass.  So, one does not have to buy into the neo-Catholic position and ecclesiology in order to not be in schism.
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If, by "grave misgivings," you mean they think the Novus Ordo Mass is Protestant, sacrilegious, illicit, or invalid, then they're indeed in schism.

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='Dave' date='Feb 14 2006, 03:06 PM']If, by "grave misgivings," you mean they think the Novus Ordo Mass is Protestant, sacrilegious, illicit, or invalid, then they're indeed in schism.
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I never said any of those things. However, I will say that the NOM is [i]dangerously close[/i] to Protestantism, especially as it is normally said. Note that that's not the same thing as saying that it [i]actually is[/i] Protestant. Nonetheless, my statement qualifies as a "grave misgiving" without actually being a case of schism.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 14 2006, 04:07 PM']I never said any of those things.  However, I will say that the NOM is [i]dangerously close[/i] to Protestantism, especially as it is normally said.  Note that that's not the same thing as saying that it [i]actually is[/i] Protestant.  Nonetheless, my statement qualifies as a "grave misgiving" without actually being a case of schism.
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Could you be so kind as to provide citation? I believe that would be of great help in this context so as to prevent future misunderstandings.

[Dave]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 14 2006, 05:07 PM']I never said any of those things.  However, I will say that the NOM is [i]dangerously close[/i] to Protestantism, especially as it is normally said.  Note that that's not the same thing as saying that it [i]actually is[/i] Protestant.  Nonetheless, my statement qualifies as a "grave misgiving" without actually being a case of schism.
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Especially as it's normally said ... so in other words you're saying that in the way the Novus Ordo was truly meant to be (i.e. Latin, chant, incense, etc.) that it's not Protestant? Because unfortunately, it's hard to find Catholic parishes these days that use all of those.

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 14 2006, 04:15 PM']Could you be so kind as to provide citation? I believe that would be of great help in this context so as to prevent future misunderstandings.
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Citations of what?

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='Dave' date='Feb 14 2006, 04:17 PM']Especially as it's normally said ... so in other words you're saying that in the way the Novus Ordo was truly meant to be (i.e. Latin, chant, incense, etc.) that it's not Protestant?  Because unfortunately, it's hard to find Catholic parishes these days that use all of those.
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1. I wasn't stating my position on the Mass at all. I just said one could hold that the New Mass is dangerously close to Protestantism, and this shouldn't even warrant the suspicion or accusation of schism.

2. Considering it's hard to find Catholic parishes that have the Latin, chant, and incense you mentioned above, that indeed is a problem.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 14 2006, 05:07 PM']I never said any of those things.  However, I will say that the NOM is [i]dangerously close[/i] to Protestantism, especially as it is normally said.  Note that that's not the same thing as saying that it [i]actually is[/i] Protestant.  Nonetheless, my statement qualifies as a "grave misgiving" without actually being a case of schism.
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I do believe that there are some good things, would you agree? Just for clarification's sake, anyways.

I like how the Priest doesn't say everything silently (in some ways...in others, I personally prefer the silence of the Tridentine Mass)...and actually think it's because of the mics. I have a friend who informed me that it might have been to preserve the Priests' voices that the Mass was done in silence.

I like how the music now has meaning. I was taught this by my schola master, whom, if you think he's "modern," you couldn't be further from the truth. He celebrates the Tridentine Mass almost every day (he's in a monastery, so he can do this) and has been a Priest for about 60.5 years now. He says that after Vatican II, one of the things that changed for the better, was that the songs had meaning as prayer.

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Feb 14 2006, 04:48 PM']I do believe that there are some good things, would you agree?  Just for clarification's sake, anyways.[/quote]

If you mean in regard to the changes in the Mass, then the answer is an emphatic "No."

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Feb 14 2006, 04:48 PM']I like how the music now has meaning. 
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The music now has meaning? You have got to be absolutely kidding me. Read the words to any Gregorian chant and compare it to the modern drivel that sung at Mass today.

[qfnol31]

What do you think of having two reading from both Testaments? Or how about Communion under Both Species done properly...I do not mean with EMs. If you think I like them, that will soon be fixed. Trent hinted that this could (and should) come back one day. I can find the link later if you want.

I sing Gregorian chant for Mass, so I know quite well what its meaning is. Did you know, however, that in the Tridentine Mass the Priest is required to say the same prayer in secret as is sung? This was explained to me, by a Priest who says the Mass, that the music really has no meaning for the Mass itself. When the Credo is sung (as it ought to be), he too must say the Credo because your singing it isn't worth anything for the Mass.

I prefer Gregorian chant to anything and go to Mass where they only sing that and polyphony. I agree with you that Gregorian chant is the best music (as does the Church), but before Vatican II, the songs didn't mean anything for the Mass itself.