Thy Geekdom Come Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='philothea' date='Feb 16 2006, 09:21 PM']Looking back on my response, telling you to go listen to a long TV program is not very helpful. Here's the quick philothea summary of St. John of the Cross. Please consult a professional for further assistance. - As long as you can discursively meditate, do so. - If you can't, consistently, for an extended period of time, check to see if anything else is causing a problem. Are you depressed, or ill, or stressed by a new situation, or doing something wrong? - If there is something identifable wrong, then deal with that problem. - If nothing seems to be wrong other than you can't meditate, pray without meditating. Wait in darkness and dryness. Don't try to force any images. - Assuming this is the beginning of contemplation, eventually the dryness will begin to satisfy you, and you will be comfortable with this concept-free mode of prayer. One important note: this does not address not wanting to pray. The person beginning contemplative prayer still wants very much to pray, they just think it's no longer possible. [right][snapback]889790[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Haha...nope, not me. I long for prayer that makes me burn for God. I suppose I'm just dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morostheos Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Remember that "unsuccessful" attempts to pray are also prayer. Just making the effort is prayer and is very pleasing to God. Unite your dryness with the sufferings of Christ on the cross. "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='morostheos' date='Feb 16 2006, 09:54 PM']Remember that "unsuccessful" attempts to pray are also prayer. Just making the effort is prayer and is very pleasing to God. Unite your dryness with the sufferings of Christ on the cross. "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" [right][snapback]889820[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes...the problem is that I too often seek to pray so that I can know that I am pleasing to God, which in itself displeases Him because it is interested in self. It seems impossible to grow humble enough to be saintly. They have crossed a gap over which I could never tread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morostheos Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 16 2006, 10:09 PM']Yes...the problem is that I too often seek to pray so that I can know that I am pleasing to God, which in itself displeases Him because it is interested in self. It seems impossible to grow humble enough to be saintly. They have crossed a gap over which I could never tread. [right][snapback]889838[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The closer to sainthood you get the larger that gap will seem, because you become more aware of your own sinfulness and need for God's grace. We don't live for consolation on Earth, but in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Okay I just read the last post, but I like what St. Louis de Montfort says about praying to Mary. You pray not for some benefit to you, but beause she deserves to be honored. I believe that can be the same as praying to God (You just cannot take that too far into the Quietist heresy of never asking for God's assistance or aid). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Walker Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 I think it would be usefule to actually state the definition of centering prayer and also to present what Keating and Pennington think that about it and its purpose in spiritual growth. Basically it is an activity in which you attempt to shutdown ALL perception. Neither Keating or Pennington ever say, to my knowledge (I've read Keating's book which describes the method, that's it) that one of the goals of this activity is to enter an altered state of consciousness. But that is exactly what you do to yourself if you engage in the activity these guys have termed "centering prayer." Especially if you do it exactly the way Keating lays it out in his book and the way Contemplative Outreach lays it out. How do I know this? I've experienced it. One evening I sat down to do centering prayer. I had been doing it for several weeks, twice a day for twenty minutes, as prescribed by Keating. I always timed myself with my wristwatch. Keating says that the "prayer" should be done sitting in a chair without armrests, and one in which it would be difficult in which to fall asleep, but not so uncomfortable as to be a distraction. This is because the goal of this activity as I stated above is to remove oneself from conscious awareness of the world beyond the mind. So I there I sat and began to do the things Keating suggests in order to bring about what he calls "pure consciousness," which is an odd experience when it is achieved. I rested my hands on my thighs, closed my eyes, relaxed my body and began to do the mental process of "letting be." This is accomplished primarily, NOT by a bona-fide mantra, but by a SEEMING mantra. A lot of people think centering prayer involves the use of a repeated word or phrase, but that's not EXACTLY the case. I can't, and actually don't want, to remember the word I used because it is still associated (I'm feeling it even now) with the extreme tension that I felt in doing this activity (my heart always pounded and it was hard to quiet down the way Keating says you should because of that). But this one particular time, it happened. I set my timer for 20 minutes and went into it. Then, what seemed like an instant later, my wristwatch started beeping. I opened my eyes and looked at the thing and it read 0:00:00. I was puzzled because ordinarily I was aware or semi-aware of the passage of the whole 20 minute period. I thought that maybe I had set the watch incorrectly, but I hadn't. I had totally blanked for nearly 20 minutes. What's SO weird is that I knew somehow that I had not fallen asleep, because I had done so before and the beeping wristwatch had fallen on deaf ears . I tell you I was not aware of ANYTHING. Keating describes this in his book as "pure consciousness" which is weird because [i]I wasn't conscious of anything during it[/i]. Why does he say this is the goal of centering prayer? Because he believes that entering that state allows the Holy Spirit to perform on the person what he calls "divine psychotherapy." He thinks that this "divine psychotherapy" is the "healing process" which brings us to union with God. In it we are healed of our negative emotional "programming" and energy which has accumulated in our unconscious since birth, and is the main reason we continue to be separated from God. I think he is trying to say that sin and original sin (and the effect they have on us) are more accurately described in this way. He MAY have a point in some way, but I'm not sure his thinking about sin is accurate enough that it would not confuse. Why do I say all of that? Well there is a reason, and it is rather frightening. What does a psychotherapist do for his patient? He employs a method of sub-conscious suggestion designed to gain control of the very thought prcesses of the patient so that he can suggest the patient OUT of afflictive thought processes. This therapy has been known to cause serious mental damage to people because not all psychotherapists know what they're doing in it. Some psychotherapists have even been known to deliberately gain control of their weakest patients for immoral purposes. The workings of the human mind are such that they can be analyzed scientifically and methods can be developed to modify them. Psychologists have confirmed that altered states of consciousness, such as those entered into through activities like centering prayer, are a threat to mental health. They can lead to narcissism, insanity, and depression, which is apparently common among practitioners of so-called New Age methods. One more thing: an altered state is a doorway for demons through which they can enter your life and have greater influence over your actions. This has been proven time and again by people in the occult who have encountered demons or were possessed by them because they had an out-of-body experience, they used an ouija board, or through some method of mental "discipline" they shut off the natural defense of the conscious mind and perception and entered the state of pure helplessness that is Keating's "pure consciousness." It is a VOID. And Lucifer dwells there. And he might just "suggest" a dangerous thought process to the unconscious mind and thus ensnare the mind in falsehood. It cannot be stated clearly enough: centering prayer has nothing to do with Christian Meditation, and its proponents do indeed incorrectly describe authentic contemplative spirituality to the people who listen to what they have to say about it. In The Cloud of Unknowing, a book on contemplative prayer written by an unkown author in (I think) the 14th century and held up by Keating and Pennington as the foundation of their ideas, contemplative prayer is described as a "work." The "method" of this "contemplative work," as described by the author of this book (who btw was a Thomist), is not the same as this "centering prayer" desribed by Keating and Pennington. And for these two renegade Trappists to say that centering prayer is the same as the "contemplative work" described in the Cloud of Unknowing is a horrible distortion that led me and has led others to a potential "spiritual death" at the hands of the Enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Desert Walker, Very well said! God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Yeah... very nice (if creepy ) explanation, Desert Walker. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 *reviving this thread after 3 years!* (wow, this thread has existed even before my "conversion") so, i have read in a local book why new age meditation is bad.. it is because it focuses on the state, on the experience, rather than God. i am exposed to this Centering Prayer, through the book of Laurence Freeman OSB and i find the words "mantra" very disturbing. So one time in an online group someone posted about this centering prayer and it has methods which i find very confusing... i told her the contemplation i know, which a Discalced Carmelite Nun taught me, and it is very simple. It is a "a loving gaze to God", you are to feel His love and that's it. I was told by the poster that it is better to follow the centering prayer method. SO i stopped commenting.. so now i am quite enlightened about the danger of this centering prayer. And as an Intercessor of the Lamb I was taught that contemplation is a heart-to-heart experience with God. Any objections? am hoping for your response. (i have to confess: i feel so bad because everytime i talk no one listens, everytime i post, no one replies...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 [quote name='tnavarro61' post='1807522' date='Mar 15 2009, 06:31 AM']*reviving this thread after 3 years!* (wow, this thread has existed even before my "conversion") so, i have read in a local book why new age meditation is bad.. it is because it focuses on the state, on the experience, rather than God. i am exposed to this Centering Prayer, through the book of Laurence Freeman OSB and i find the words "mantra" very disturbing. So one time in an online group someone posted about this centering prayer and it has methods which i find very confusing... i told her the contemplation i know, which a Discalced Carmelite Nun taught me, and it is very simple. It is a "a loving gaze to God", you are to feel His love and that's it. I was told by the poster that it is better to follow the centering prayer method. SO i stopped commenting.. so now i am quite enlightened about the danger of this centering prayer. And as an Intercessor of the Lamb I was taught that contemplation is a heart-to-heart experience with God. Any objections? am hoping for your response. (i have to confess: i feel so bad because everytime i talk no one listens, everytime i post, no one replies...)[/quote] You are right to note the dangers of centering prayer and to stay away from it. Centering prayer and contemplation are polar opposites. One focuses on self while the other is a communion with God. Centering prayer and damnation are similar occurrences - both involve loneliness and inwardness - a turning from God to self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari Therese Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 (edited) I was introduced a few years ago to centering prayer by some catholics. I thought that it was legit, but after I tried it a few times, it got a bad feeling about it, and stopped. I did not like the fact that your supposed to empty yourself, it just didn't seem right. In prayer you are supposed to encounter God, you are supposed to get rid of distractions, but not get rid of everything inside you. I began researching and I wasn't surprised that it turned out to be 'new agey' and that cults use a similar practice of emptying yourself to program new members. I'm very thankful to God and my Guardian Angel for protecting me before I got hurt. Dear Desert Walker, I'm glad that you discovered the evils of this prayer. I am sorry that you have been crippled by it. I am confident that God is a great physician and he will heal you. It may take time, but don't give up. Keep receiving the Sacraments as frequently as possible, and stick with Holy Mother Church and I think that you'll make out alright. Edited March 15, 2009 by Mari Therese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 yeah... i got the "it".. thanks [b]Mari Therese[/b] . Contemplation is removing all the distractions while centering focusing on removing the "inside" of a person... tsk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I remember this thread! Has it really been three years? [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1807531' date='Mar 15 2009, 08:48 AM']You are right to note the dangers of centering prayer and to stay away from it. Centering prayer and contemplation are polar opposites. One focuses on self while the other is a communion with God. Centering prayer and damnation are similar occurrences - both involve loneliness and inwardness - a turning from God to self.[/quote] Another description just occurred to me. Centering prayer and Eastern meditation are like blinding yourself by closing your eyes. Contemplation is like being blinded by a light so bright you can no longer see. The first is just... dumb. And who knows what you will run into with your eyes shut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 [quote name='jezic' post='874600' date='Feb 3 2006, 04:10 PM']see meditation is not neutral. It can't be. it is either for Jesus or against him. If it has an external focus and it draws you closer to God, then it is good. If it has an internal focus and does anything but draw you closer to him, it is not good.[/quote] Just a wondering; don't we take God inside us when we partake of the Eucharist? Isn't God "inside" every one of us, since God is omnipresent? If we're thinking about God, He's in our mind/focus and thus within our consciousness, and I'm sure He likes being there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Agreed. While I understand the problem with centering prayer, I'm not sure why silencing our mind is a bad thing. I struggle constantly with prayer because there are a half million different things bouncing around my head at any given time. Taking some deep breaths and tuning out those distractions is really important for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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