Submission in Marriage

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

There have been posts on this board stating that women are not to submit in marriage. Others say it's mutual submission. What is the marriage design which God has given those whose vocation is marriage?

[Sojourner]

Mutual submission, as outlined in Ephesians, the Theology of the Body, and numerous other teachings.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Doesn't Ephesians say, "Wives submit to your husbands and husbands love your wives?"

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Ephesians 5:

[quote]  21
    5 Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. 6
22
    Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
23
    For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
24
    As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
25
    Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her
26
    to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
27
    that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28
    So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29
    For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,
30
    because we are members of his body.
31
    "For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32
    This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.
33
    In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband. [/quote]

I believe this is the part in Ephesians of which you are referring to.

[Didacus]

Theologically speaking, I cannot tell for certain. But by experience;

1. I believe it is lived differently by everyone.


2. One way I like to put it is "My strong points shall help her weak ponts, and the same for her strong points towards my own." which is a way of saying complicity i suppose.


3. When in the house, my wife makes law. Wehn we are out of the house, I make law. Generally speaking.

fro example, she takes care of the daily budget. She buys the groceries, does the shopping, fill the car with gas and ect... I basically hand over my paycheck as soon as I get it; and then I ask her for spending money which I rarely have by the way. She on the other hand has spending money all the time; its HER department to have it.

On the other hand, for big expenses; I take over. I will go to the bank and borrow to buy a new car (though she signed with me on the last car we bougt, the credit check was on my name). I deal with the insurance on a yearly basis to 'negotiate' contract. I deal with the taxes. Ect... all things that are 'outside' the care of the home, is MY department.

So I submit to her, when in the house. But outside the house she submits to me.

Antoher example is that she decides when the kids go to bed. On the other hand, when visiting, I decide when we go home. (generally spekaing, and without taking it all to extremes either; we are not in the millitary)



I do the discipline when it comes to the kids (again, generally speaking), but she is the one that generally whipes their tears. So we make way for each other in each other's respective fields of expertise, and hence we each have our 'areas' of authority which is mutually respected.




any questions?

[peacenluvbaby]

I do contend that women need not submit - in the context of unilateral submission to the man's decision/final say as opposed to a mutual "submission" to God, though I would prefer a word that showed an active choice of God and his path rather than a word that connotatively suggests passive "giving in". Mutual submission to each other...would again be a balanced relationship of love, so again submission (as it is commonly used in our language and culture) seems inappropriate - because what is implied by the mutual submission is the mutual striving to do what is best out of love for each other and for God.

Peace!

[Era Might]

It is a mutual submission. But in the same way male and female are equal yet different, so this submission is mutual yet essentially different. The submission of a wife is to the husband as head of the family, as the visible sign of authority. The submission of the husband is to the wife as his own flesh. Her good is his good. He must humbly submit to her wisdom and her gifts, because they have become his own. He can't make decisions despite her, but with and for her.

John Paul emphasizes that the submission is mutual because ultimately, both are subject to Christ. The relationship is an ongoing, mutual effort to discern and carry out the will of Christ. This does not abolish proper roles (man is, by nature, a leader), but it puts them in proper light. It's much like Augustine and his own conception of the episcopacy: "I am a Bishop for you, but I am a Christian with you". Headship is not an occasion for dominance, but service.

[peacenluvbaby]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Feb 2 2006, 11:43 AM']
So I submit to her, when in the house.  But outside the house she submits to me.

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That sounds like mutual...negotiated submission patterns. Nice going Didacus!

Peace

[Era Might]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Feb 2 2006, 01:43 PM']So I submit to her, when in the house.  But outside the house she submits to me.
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So you're pretty much a puppet regime. We know who pulls the strings...

:

[Didacus]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 2 2006, 11:45 AM']So you're pretty much a puppet regime. We know who pulls the strings...

:
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[Sojourner]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Feb 2 2006, 01:42 PM']Ephesians 5:
I believe this is the part in Ephesians of which you are referring to.
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Yes, the part that starts out:
[quote]21Submit to [b]one another [/b]out of reverence for Christ.[/quote]
OK, so how do wives submit to their husbands?
[quote]22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. [/quote]
And how do husbands submit to their wives?
[quote]25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.[/quote]

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

I'm only arguing against the 'no submission on the wives part' point that is trying to be made.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Or no submission on either part.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Feb 2 2006, 02:01 PM']I'm only arguing against the 'no submission on the wives part' point that is trying to be made.
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If I understand the peacenik correctly, her problem is with your claim that all husbands are given authority to make unilateral decisions for their families and that wives just have to submit.

[photosynthesis]

I believe that wies submit to their husbands, husbands ([b]EDIT[/b]: love) their wives as Christ loved the Church

That being said, I have never seen this carried out in real life.