1 John

[Brother Adam]

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5:7

Is this an accurate translation?

[daugher-of-Mary]

That's what I found in Douay Rheims, but the NAB says something completely different...

7
So there are three that testify,
8
the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

The Jerusalem Bible...
7 so that there are three witnesses,
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood,
and all three of them agree.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='daugher-of-Mary' date='Jan 28 2006, 11:46 AM']That's what I found in Douay Rheims, but the NAB says something completely different...

7
    So there are three that testify,
8
    the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

The Jerusalem Bible...
7 so that there are three witnesses,
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood,
and all three of them agree.
[right][snapback]868570[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Right, RSV is similiar, which is why I wonder if the Protestantized version that this is a testimony to the Trinity is false.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jan 28 2006, 11:55 AM']For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  - 1 John 5:7

Is this an accurate translation?
[right][snapback]868531[/snapback][/right][/quote]
apparently, older translations, like the DRV and the KJV use a different Greek manuscript than newer translations. notice how vs. 7 and 8 from the KJV read:

[b]7 [/b]For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
[b]8 [/b]And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

but, vs. 7 and 8 from the NASB (a more modern protestant translation) read:

[b]7 [/b]For there are three that testify:
[b]8 [/b]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

so, it would appear that more modern translations don't even include the Greek from vs. 7 that is included in the KJV (and the DRV). it could be that the manuscripts our modern translators used did not contain this Greek, or the translators thought that it was a copyists addition, put in so that vs. 8 would point back to the Trinity.

at any rate, its not a mistranslation as much as it is a difference of manuscripts.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

the navarre commentary clears up this matter:[list][b]7-8.[/b] The Sistine-Clementine edition of the Vulgate included an addition which left the text reading as follows: "There are three who give witness [i]in heaven: the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three who give witness on earth.[/i] the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree." The words shown in italics (known as the Johannine "comma" or addition) were the subject of heated debate (around the end of the nineteenth century) as to their authenticity. The Holy Office (as was) left theologians free to research the matter (cf. "[i]Declaration[/i]", 2 June 1927) and in fact it has been shown that the "comma" was introduced in Spain around the fourth century AD in a text attributed to Priscillian, and therefore does not belong to the original inspired text. The "comma" makes express mention of the Blessed Trinity; however, even without it the text proclaims that mystery of faith fairly clearly: it makes mention of Jesus Christ, the Son of God (vv. 5-6), and of the Holy Spirit (v. 7) and of the Father, both of whom bear witness to the Son (v. 9).

According to the legal prescriptions of the Old Testament, the testimony of one witness was insufficient at trials (Deut 17:6; cf. Jn 8:17). St John points to three witnesses (the Holy Spirit, water and blood), thereby refuting the Gnostic teaching; he is saying that the water and the blood, that is, Christ's baptism and his death on the Cross, are a manifestation of his divinity. Clearly the word "witness" is used here in a broad sense: namely, in the sense that at those two important moments in his life, Christ makes known to us that he is true God.

The Fathers who interpreted these words as referring to the sacraments usually comment on the fact that in the sacraments the grace of God is communicated internally and is signaled externally. St Bede writes along those lines: "The Holy Spirit makes us adoptive sons of God; the water of the sacred fount cleanses us; the blood of the Lord redeems us: the spiritual sacrament gives us a dual witness, one visible, one invisible" ("[i]In I Epist. S. Ioannis, ad loc.[/i]").
[/list]very interesting :

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

Is the Navarre commentary online, or did you actually type all that out?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jan 28 2006, 02:29 PM']Is the Navarre commentary online, or did you actually type all that out?
[right][snapback]868622[/snapback][/right][/quote]
go here and search for the passage u want at the bottom.

[url="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CinDailyWord/"]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CinDailyWord/[/url]

it works best if u just search for the book and the chapter, spell out the name of the book, and put it in quotation marks, like this:

"1 Corinthians 5"

[phatcatholic]

btw, it goes along w/ the mass readings and this yahoo group has only been around since 2004, so the entire commentary isn't up yet.

[phatcatholic]

there's also a google group, but it hasn't been around as long, so not as much of the commentary is available
[url="http://groups.google.com/group/CIN-Daily-Word?lnk=lr"]http://groups.google.com/group/CIN-Daily-Word?lnk=lr[/url]

[daugher-of-Mary]

once again, pc is my hero.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jan 28 2006, 09:55 AM']For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  - 1 John 5:7

Is this an accurate translation?
[right][snapback]868531[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
many modern translations exclude that verse entirely. It is absent in the early Greek manuscripts and is really something particular to the latin manuscript tradition (esp. the vulgate; although I believe the King James includes the verse). I'd say most scholars consider it to be an interpolation. Probably the marginal gloss of some copyist that made its way into the text of certain manuscripts.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 28 2006, 12:03 PM']apparently, older translations, like the DRV and the KJV use a different Greek manuscript than newer translations. notice how vs. 7 and 8 from the KJV read:

[b]7 [/b]For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 
[b]8 [/b]And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 

but, vs. 7 and 8 from the NASB (a more modern protestant translation) read:

[b]7 [/b]For there are three that testify: 
[b]8 [/b]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 

so, it would appear that more modern translations don't even include the Greek from vs. 7 that is included in the KJV (and the DRV). it could be that the manuscripts our modern translators used did not contain this Greek, or the translators thought that it was a copyists addition, put in so that vs. 8 would point back to the Trinity.

at any rate, its not a mistranslation as much as it is a difference of manuscripts.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic
[right][snapback]868607[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Sorry, I didn't see your posts. But anyway, the Greek manuscripts that the King James folks had at hand weren't that great. There are 15th and 16th century Greek manuscripts which include that verse, but before that time good luck finding any. In other words someone around that time "fixed" the Greek manuscripts to make it consistent with the well-known Latin interpolation. But the KJV is a miserable translation anyway; there are so many choices of words which indicate to me that the scholars were trained pretty well in classical Greek, but had little appreciation for the subtleties of koine or the semitic idiom.
In other words when I've read the KJV I notice funny choices of words that would be good renderings in Attic Greek but which would be almost non-choices in Koine and clearly don't fit the context. In some cases its troublesome; for example I remember discussing the rapture with a certain Protestant whose argument rested upon one particular word in a particular passage, which was actually just a really dumb translation on the part of the KJV peeps.

[Fidei Defensor]

In the latin version on newadvent.org, that verse just says "Quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant "

[Quietfire]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jan 29 2006, 03:50 AM']many modern translations exclude that verse entirely. It is absent in the early Greek manuscripts and is really something particular to the latin manuscript tradition (esp. the vulgate; although I believe the King James includes the verse). I'd say most scholars consider it to be an interpolation. Probably the marginal gloss of some copyist that made its way into the text of certain manuscripts.
[right][snapback]869135[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

So does that mean that that specific verse was added?
Just like "for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever" at the end of the "Our Father" Lord's Prayer? That was a marginal gloss that was most likely written by a copyist and ended up in certain copies of the Bible but was never supposed to be there.

So then how is that particular paragraph, or chapter suppose to read?



Pax

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Jan 29 2006, 12:44 PM']So does that mean that that specific verse was added?[/quote]
yes.


[quote]So then how is that particular paragraph, or chapter suppose to read?[right][snapback]869240[/snapback][/right][/quote]
like this (from the RSV):

[b]7 [/b]And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
[b]8 [/b]There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.

or this from the NASB:

[b]7 [/b]For there are three that testify:
[b]8 [/b]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

my earlier post ([url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=46730&view=findpost&p=868609"][b]here[/b][/url]) says which portion was added.