Treatise on the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins...

[Brother Adam]

This is from Augustine:

"It may therefore be correctly affirmed, that such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all. That person, therefore, greatly deceives both himself and others, who teaches that they will not be involved in condemnation; whereas the apostle says: "Judgment from one offence to condemnation," (1) and again a little after: "By the offence of one upon all persons to condemnation." (2) When, indeed, Adam sinned by not obeying God, then his body--although it was a natural and mortal body--lost the grace whereby it used in every part of it to be obedient to the soul. Then there arose in men affections common to the brutes which are productive of shame, and which made man ashamed of his own nakedness. (3) Then also, by a certain disease which was conceived in men from a suddenly injected and pestilential corruption, it was brought about that they lost that stability of life in which they were created, and, by reason of the mutations which they experienced in the stages of life, issued at last in death. However many were the years they lived in their subsequent life, yet they began to die on the day when they received the law of death, because they kept verging towards old age. For that possesses not even a moment's stability, but glides away without intermission, which by constant change perceptibly advances to an end which does not produce perfection, but utter exhaustion. Thus, then, was fulfilled what God had spoken: "In the day that ye eat thereof, ye shall surely die." (4) As a consequence, then, of this disobedience of the flesh and this law of sin and death, whoever is born of the flesh has need of spiritual regeneration--not only that he may reach the kingdom of God, but also that he may be freed from the damnation of sin. Hence men are on the one hand born in the flesh liable to sin and death from the first Adam, and on the other hand are born again in baptism associated with the righteousness and eternal life of the second Adam; even as it is written in the book of Ecclesiasticus: "Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (5) Now whether it be said of the woman or of Adam, both statements pertain to the first man; since (as we know) the woman is of the man, and the two are one flesh. Whence also it is written: "And they twain shall be one flesh; wherefore," the Lord says, "they are no more twain, but one flesh." (6) "

Treatise on the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins and the Baptism of Infants" Book I

It seems that he is basically saying unbaptized infants are damned. Does that mean there are at least 42 million aborted infants in hell? I always thought the Church taught they were in heaven?

[cmotherofpirl]

Augustine is not infallible.

[rkwright]

Augustine did a lot of really good things for the Church, but like the above cmom said, hes not infalliable and not everything he wrote\taught has been fully incorporated into the Church.

Your example is one of his teachings I am speaking about. I think he also wrote that the sexual act is inherently 'evil' as it is the act which 'transmits the Orginal Sin'. Obviously this is at odds with JPII theology of the body, and more recently Benedicts new encyclical.

When you read that and some other works I think what Augustine had in mind by 'mildest condemnation' was not a mild hell. But more like place that was not hell, yet not heaven (I think this is where the limbo place gets its workings from). Though I could be wrong...

On another note, I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that just because an infant died (aborition or otherwise) they get a pass to heaven automatically. Even the angels get a choice, why wouldn't these babies? Obviously they can't make their choices here in our world, but maybe their souls can? Are there are any Church documents that say anything on this?

[Socrates]

The Church has never taught that unbaptized infants (aborted or otherwise) go to heaven.

The part of hell which Augustine refers to is not the hell of the damned, but what would later be known as "limbo."
Limbo has tradtionally been considered part of hell, though quite different from the hell of the damned, with its eternal torments.
Limbo was thought of as a place of everlasting natural happiness, but without the supernatural joy of the Beatific Vision.
Dante placed it as the outermost circle of hell.

The Church has never definitively taught on limbo nor the eternal reward of unbaptized infants, so this all remains in the realm of speculative theology.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 28 2006, 07:29 PM']The Church has never taught that unbaptized infants (aborted or otherwise) go to heaven.

The part of hell which Augustine refers to is not the hell of the damned, but what would later be known as "limbo."
Limbo has tradtionally been considered part of hell, though quite different from the hell of the damned, with its eternal torments.
Limbo was thought of as a place of everlasting natural happiness, but without the supernatural joy of the Beatific Vision.
Dante placed it as the outermost circle of hell.

The Church has never definitively taught on limbo nor the eternal reward of unbaptized infants, so this all remains in the realm of speculative theology.
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I see. Thank you for the insight. I would then continue to be inclined to defer to the mercy, love and justice of God. I would speculate that since God is all knowing, he would know, and in his infinite mercy, bring those souls to heaven that if given the chance would be baptized and embrace Him - at the very least.

[Desert Walker]

Remember these things which the Chuirch teaches about:

1. Baptism of desire

2. God's judgements are not like ours

He is the only one who can justly judge each person no matter what their carnal condition. Thus, WE can never know the "final destination" of the dead unless it is revealed somehow from that place beyond ours.

I think that baptism of desire extends to the moment of the Particular Judgement. Just a feeling I have.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Desert Walker